DENON TURNTABLES!?

C

ctwickman

New member
Whatsup people...

Well, I have 1200's and of course love them--they've given me no real problems. However, when I spin hip-hop it's really tough to mix with only +/- 8% pitch to control things, and when a hip-hop choon is playing at +8%, for instance, the rapper's voice sounds like a chipmunk... techno/house/trance is all good though....

My question is, I've been REALLY considering selling my 1200's, pocketing the extra cash, and diving into Denon DP-DJ151's. They look REALLY sweet guys--they have a higher torque motor than the Technics (WOW!), have +/- 12% pitch which would solve my problems mixing hip-hop, and get this, they have realtime key adjust/time stretch to keep those rapper's voices in check. All this, while I'm sure they kick just as much *** for techno and DMC with all that torque.

Now I have NO first-hand experience with these--I haven't seen them around 'cept for the 'net. But they look completely killer, and I'd be willing to sell my 1200's to get them if they can back up their specs, and that's saying A LOT FOLKS! :)

Peace,
Chris
 
if i were u i wouldnt sell ur techis.
there is a piece of gadgetry called vinyl touch (i think thats what its called )that keeps maintains key at any pitch on the turntable similar to what the denon does.
u should be able to find it at http://www.htfr.co.uk
i know there is a way of increasing the pitch range on the 1200's it requires u to open ur deck up and change some settings. i think dj thy would be able to fill u in on it.
ive seen the denons up close. never worked with them. the guy who was using it said that it felt a bit light. im not qsure what exactly he meant by "light".

so the bottom line is. if ur keen on a change then sell ur techis and go out and buy the denons.
if ur happy with pluggin in a 1 u rack mountable gadget that does the job of keeping the chipmunks out then go get the gadeget from http://www.htfr.co.uk, im sure opening up the techi shouldnt be too much of a bother either.

let us know what u plan to do
 
One thing I see people overseeing when considering decks is the feedback (rambling), maybe that´s what ur friend meant by Denons "feeling light". I´m saying so because a couple of friends tested the TT1 from Numark and considered the features, built and specs rather amazing but when put to test in clubs they found´em to have much feedback from the pumping soundsystem, it was noticeable enough for their tastes. Maybe the base material and design, as in many other decks, should be more solid but who knows?

Vestaxes are touted as the least affected by this problem w/ their ASTS arms and design, w/ the 1200 following close (well, not SO close as u have to "insulate" them and put them on a rather solid support to minimize the ramble), but I can´t say for the Denons - they are excellent decks in all ways, powerfull and fast and precise (I tested a pair and loved´em too), but one should look for the use one will give to a deck and consider the performance in the real world before make a decision. If a TT never see any action in a rave, big gig or a club, then IMO there´s not much difference between them all - actually the new breed from Numark, Denon and Vestax beat the 1200 in features and specs dept.! But if going for professional use, feedback should be considered IMO.

Alex TC in the mix! Regards to all.
 
Thanks guys for the replies...

I did some digging and found that the Denon's wow and flutter is around 0.2% wrms whereas the 1200's are around 0.01% wrms. I am actually scared by that Denon spec cuz I think +/-0.2% pitch is enough to through off a tightly mixed set. Maybe I'm just anal, but that seems like a terrible spec and if you are mixing 140bpm trance, for instance, I think 0.2% is enough to through a long mix off. No matter what the Denon can do, that number scares me and they should have really considered a more accurate motor. Geminis even have a better wow/flutter than that!

Also, I thought about it, since the DP-DJ151 doesn't require a groundwire and is "digital" as an output, I am reasoning that no matter what you do, there is a Analog-to-Digital conversion within the turntable, so there will NEVER be any soft analog sound. I know this isn't a big deal, but the concept of all digital sound coming out of a turntable kinda "weirds" me out. It would be GREAT for recording apps, however.

So you are right that we should consider how these things work in real life situations.

Thanks for the advice about the external pitch-altering gadget--I didn't know about that and it sounds great.

Also, I was aware through the grapevine that you can change the pitch range of the 1200's, but have never seen it done first hand. Is it safe? Are there any drawbacks? Does anyone have any first-hand experience?

Thanks!
Chris
 
Glad we could help. I think ur question about altering pitch range on the 1200's should be pointed at DJ Thy ! He would be the right one to ask. He is a moderator here. i suggest u start a new thread asking for thy's help ! :)
Until u mentioned wow and flutter I thought i was the only techno crazy geek ! Ah it feels good to not be alone ! :)

let us know how it goes

peace :cool:
 
Oh yes and another thing ! The wow and flutter on the denon is probably that high because of all the digital wizardry going on inside it (key control function) Im not quite sure if it would affect a tightly mixed set. give me a days or so, ill go do some digging on that !
 
The 1200 are so simple to open up and fuss around u'd be amazed at how easy it is to alter pitch and brake ranges. Too bad I can't (actually, I dunno!)post a picture of the internals showing exactly which one do what, but if I'm not wrong the components are id-ed w/ some sort of mark to them (like "brake" and "pitch") writen in the circuitry support. Just pull up the platter, unscrew the bits, open up and check inside carefully. They are two small modulators, to be set using a small screwdriver or philips tool. The only drawback I see, and it's a minor one actually, is the pitch ruler won't be accurate ie when showing, say, 6% (pitch button in the #6) it'll be actually more but that's nothing...

BTW, Technics has a close-to-zero wow and flutter due to their motor/drive system, which for his turn is a patented concept - therefore no one else is able to copycat the system or its performance, pretty much like the ASTS tone arms of the Vestax (real improvement!). But perfoamnce-wise I'd be ok w/ the Denon specs in that dept as u can control pitch and it's not that much afected anyway, but the feedback and ramble I mentioned in my post above (some say rumble, but whatever...) can't be controled and depends on vibrations and sounds affecting the tonearm and the base of the TT - THAT affects the output sound and THAT really scares me (like having a worse cart and stylus than the previous dj at the club - hehehe!!!).

Regards,

Alex TC

P.S. Wow, just checked and this is my 100th post! Cool!!! I think I'll put up a party to celebrate that... hehehe. Can't have enough parties, even the healing form a flu or cold is reason enough!!!

[Edited by Alex TC on 12-13-2000 at 09:10 AM]
 
hehehe...

And rest assured u're not the only techno geek around, Trikmaster...
 
ok did a little bit of diggin and this is what i came up with
the denon has master tempo just like the stanton str8-80
both of them have wow and flutter < 0.2 wrms
now the stanton str8-60's have wow and flutter < 0.15 wrms

the stanton 80's are supposed to be better than the 60's
60's dont have key control
the wow and flutter has to do something with the ad - da conversions happenin inside the deck.

im not sure exactly how but this is as close as ive got to a possible explanation today.

flutter can be defined as a high frequency speed variation of an audio signal, generally caused by irregularities in the tape path.

wow can be defined as a low frequency fluctuation in tape speed that results in an audible "wow" noticeable on sustained notes.

hmm since there isnt any tape present here im dead sure its got to do with the ability of the unit to convert analogure singals into digital. the wow and flutter must be that hight because of the conversion going on. hmmm i guess there is always a trade off !
anyway
i dont think it will affect us in the mix too much. wait till saturday im gettin my tables in then . will give u a feedback on them (stanton str8-80's)

peace :cool:
 
Actually the digitalization process that goes inside cd and tt decks is a conversion of audio signal into digital language. Now I hear u say "Ha, realy?". My point is, it´s an electronic, not physical, process that allows Master Tempo and the like by a series of high speed mathematic (algorythm and logarythmic calculations, the stuff...) conversions to compensate for changes in speed (tempo) and tone of the playing music. That´s why u can change speed and keep the pitch, but as u may be aware it affects the sound yes, u loose some high freq. and small distortions in low freq. are added too, but that´s another story...

The bottom line is, digitalization does not affect wow and flutter since, as I said, it is an electronic process rather than a physical one. Wow and flutter are analog phenomena mostly related to vibrations, interferences and alterations in signal frequencies caused by physical matters, like the driver/motor minor variations in speed, etc., frequency overlap, etc. and also it all going into the carcass and tonearm of the TT. The thing is, it´s all spinning inside a TT (spin = freq.) so keeping things in check is obviously important - what do u think quatz are for? So, that´s why in principle digital TT´s are not susceptible to wow and flutter, the signal is read trough a laser beam instead of a real stylus in contact w/ the grooves. Wow and flutter, like feedback and ramble are all rather audible problems and can be measured by an osciloscope that preciselly pinpoints the variations in any given frequency, and when it happens too.

It´s all too scientifical though, that´s why I said it doesn´t really affects the performance in the real world (at least IMO) - well, at least not considering the small numbers displayed - AAAAAH!!! A good design is all too important as u can see, and that´s why I say the Technics 1200 has an overall performance that stands: from the alloy carcass to the direct drive engine and platter construction all the way to the s-shaped tonearm made in a special way, etc. it´s a one-off. Others can come up with gadgetry but the performance is what really counts in the real world. Good sound is performance IMO.. Hey, I´m in no way trying to restart the beaten-up Technics Vs. The World debate, I´m just showing my point based on facts.

Well, that´s it.. sort of! Sorry for the long post and sometimes the complexity of these issues is above my english too, therefore maybe a little confuse too. But I hope it helps!

Alex TC in the mix! Best regards to all.
 
Alex TC said:
Wow and flutter are analog phenomena mostly related to vibrations, interferences and alterations in signal frequencies caused by physical matters, like the driver/motor minor variations in speed, etc., frequency overlap, etc. and also it all going into the carcass and tonearm of the TT
Click to expand...

Ok Alex now lets take a look at the stanton series shall we :)

Str8-60 has a wow and flutter of < 0.15
Str8-80 has a wow and flutter of < 0.20

the motor on the str8-80 is stronger than the one on the 60 and is supposed to be more stable than the 60 too.

another point to be mentioned is that the 60 has a s/n ratio of 55 db and the 80 has a 50 db s/n ratio !
Funny eh ? The 80 being more "advanced" actually has lower specs !!! :) I guess its what they call the trade off factor !!!

Im thinkin its more that the motor varitaions im thinkin its got to do with the processing.
 
Yup, not all motor/drive systems are created equal... and while Technics has some 20 yrs in advance to the competition (their specs and bugs are already worked out) that does not necessarily means Stanton has down-spec'd their upper lines - actually I'd say "au contraire"! They are IMO improving it, although the specs may paradoxally say the opposite is true, like u said.

When developing more "advanced" products that usually means compromises in some areas, Technics has basically one design/product to offer (the 1200 and its variations, but allas they're all 1200 w/ dif. names and #s!!) whereas Denon, Stanton, Vestax and the bunch have many dif. lines and levels of prices and performance TT's, one for each taste and budget. IMO the differences listed by Stanton are minor and therefore have no big impact in real life, except maybe for the s/n ratios as they affect sound quality by some extent. Hmmm, maybe extreme usage, like say on a big club, rave or under heavy pounding, can bring those diferences to surface but that's also yet to be proved - I can't say for sure... hehehe!

What bugs me is the fact that some manufacturers claim stuff, like higher torque for instance, but when put to test u are let down by the actual performance: even and old man's farth can stop the platter dead, lest say a cued-up 12" in a mix!!! That's not the kind of perfomance I'm looking for, no sir!

So, numbers are one thing - anyone can print wonders about a mixer or a TT, spec-wise, but IMO it's reasonable that each product must have a performance that matches their price, that's to say 'u get what u pay' and also 'one should not expect more or accept less than spec'd and ultimatelly paid for!'
 
Just a note

Hey all, I was just looking throught this thread, and had recently also been thinking of just changing out one of my Tech's to get a Denon DJ151.

I just wanted to point out that there has been a lot of misunderstanding here. There is not an AD/DA converter for the analog signal of this table. The only ouput that uses a AD converter is the digital one, and this is the only one that you can read the key adjust through. So really, for me, this is a useless feature.

The thing that makes me interested is the fact that Denon is a more respected audio equipment company who has a longer and more highly regarded reputation in the audio community. Thier electronics, I assume, will be of a higher quality. Also, the specs that show on paper are not to be trusted under any circumstances. Wow and flutter, as an earlier poster pointed out, is a measure of tape-borne distortions, and is thus out of place when applied to vinyl playback. Therefore, any measurement of such a figure should be taken with at least a grain of salt, if not ignored. The true test is how the table sounds in your system. If you can notice tiny fluctuations in the table's playback (I use piano-only or piano and bass music to test this - works great).

The technics have many flaws. The wiring is incredibly poor. The platter is very resonant, and does have sympathetic frequencies (which cause feedback, and other frequency distortions). The tonearm is a very old and crappy design (though the Denon uses an 's' shaped one, also, I assume it is at least slightly updated). The cartridge connections are of poor design - anyone who has licked the back of a headshell knows what I mean. there are more problems, but Technics's faithful evangelists will never seem to look to another manufacturer. the truth is, the patent is up, so if another company steals the 1200 design and better upon it, then shame on Panasonic for not having done so over the last 33 years....

I will probably get the Denon in the next week or so, and do a shoot out between the Technics, recording the results. I'll post my thoughts. I scratch, too, so I will tell you all what I think about the platter torque/ weight/ pickup speed.
 
Say what?

Hey, give it a discount of about 50% and I agree w/ what u said about Technics! How long have u been spinning? Denon are w/out a doubt one of the most respected makers and their decks are being touted to be along Vestax and Numark in quality, but if the 1200 is any bad as u pointed then why it IS found on, say, 90% of all clubs/gigs/bars everywhere? It's a cult piece like a Wharhol picture, it's the staple of dance culture and that'll never change, time moves on and never goes back.

It's professional equipment dude, not just bedroom decks! Where will u find a better platter (Never!!!), motor and tonearm than on the MK's? And where have these others improved on Technics, for I see them copying and trying to beat the 1200 on their own field, exception made maybe to Vestax. Ok, the ASTS from Vestax is way better and a real improvement for turntablism mostly, the connectors and wiring may be better on a few others but when it comes down to REAL LIFE performance the Technix is still to be beaten.

It may not have all the features (gimmicks?) of other decks but then again those may appeal to technoweenies, not to djs who'd rather have reliable performance! That in fact MK's deliver in spades for some 30 yrs :D I'm not talking about the future, sooner than we think there'll sure have a deck to kick the 1200's a** but not yet IMO!!!

P.S.: I confess, I'm a Tecnhics evangelist for I grew up putting my coins on its realiability and being rewarded for doing so, so hey I'm not to overlook other makes/brands (I play whatever spin my vinyl at 33/45 rpm and has pitch adjusters and decent torque, I'm no elitist whatsoever!) but u bet I'm not to sell my 1200's for the latest flashy gadget stuffed deck either! :D

Peace!

[Edited by Alex TC on 02-12-2001 at 03:29 PM]
 
Denon TT's

Cobalt60;
I am really looking forward to your comparison :D
My new Ortofon Concorde Broadcast E is waiting in suspense for my ordered DJ151. The ability to deliver the 151 in Norway is disastrous, but the cost is acceptable.
If nothing happens soon, I'd rather go for the Stanton 100 instead.

Do you know exactly what happened to the 150 ?
It seemed to disappear from marked suddenly. Was this one replaced by the 151 ? EQ mag. forum praise the 151 and see it to be a worthy opponent to the 1200. Don't forget to check out the review of the 151 in ExtremeGroove magazine these days.
 
DJ Distinctive,

Sorry you are having trouble getting the DP-DJ151.

Let me answer some questions within this post.

The DP-DJ150 was to be sold in certain parts of the world.
What's the diff between the 150 and the 151? Nothing other than the model # and cosmetics.

There is also a great review on the 151 in REMIX.

Originally posted by Cobalt60
The only ouput that uses a AD converter is the digital one, and this is the only one that you can read the key adjust through. So really, for me, this is a useless feature.
Click to expand...

Cobalt,
In LINE OUT mode, Digital Out and Line Out are both active.
KEY ADJUST will operate.

In PHONO mode, Digital Out is not active.
KEY ADJUST will not operate. The A/D is shut off.
 
Deneon TT

Thanks Denon (Silvio ?) :
I believe I saw a posting from you in another forum indicating that a new Denon TT is under it's way ?
I am not sure it was you and where I saw it, but it was a intentionally 'blurred statement' from a Denon employee I think. I had actually expexted to see something this Winter NAMM. Do you have any comments to the above 'rumour' ?
If this is the case - some details would be nice.
Can't think of a better forum than this for breaking news :D

PS :
Have tried to locate the Remix Magazine 151-review without success so far - please direct me to an appropriate URL.

[Edited by DJ Distinctive on 02-13-2001 at 05:30 AM]
 
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