Balancing Tone Arm - Technics SL-1200MK5

[Murahachibu]

Just got a new deck and I could use a little help with my set-up. I'm new to this, so please bear with me.

I have a Shure Whitelabel cartridge on an SL-1200MK5.

So I know I need to balance the weight so that the arm is floating right above the disc and then I should dial in the small gram balance to like 2.5 to 3.5 grams (as per the whitelabel's set-up instructions). My deal is that when I do that, the needle end is still too light, it floats away during play back. I need to add more weight on the main balance weight to stop this, but I'm not sure how much is too much. Also, I'm no turntablist, but when I attempt any scratching at all or even back cueing for that matter, the needle bounces away and won't hold the groove. How precise to I need to be here with weight. I don't want to screw up my records and needle.

Update (1):

I kind of randomly added a little extra weight and the sound quality seems to have improved. I don't know if my needle is just starting to break in or if the weight made it better. Anyway, still hoping to get an answer about how careful I need to be because I don't want to screw up my wax. Thanks.

Thanks!

 

[dynagroove]

so, when you say the small gram balance below, what exactly are you referring to?

then I should dial in the small gram balance to like 2.5 to 3.5 grams

i have whitelabels and don't have a problem with them. i know you said you were new to this, so i have a feeling that when you say you are dialing the "small gram balance", you are only turning the black plastic collar at the front of the weight instead of the entire weight. this does nothing to add weight, all the collar does is allow you to set zero for your particular cart. once you get the needle floating, hold the main siver part of the weight where it is and then turn the black plastic collar to now be at zero. now turn the entire weight to 3.0 grams or so and you should be good to go. hth
jeff h

 

[mrpg]

Be carefull, dont' take ya shure's over their rated max of 3.5 grams. Adding more weight can give better quality/less skipping but its a TEMP fix to your problem and will eventually cause faster wear on records and also eF up ya needles. So I'd reset.

Keep ya records and needle dust free and allow for break in, let ya new needles and record play out completely. Also check the height settings and anti-skip. Its been said that should be at 0.

Also muscle control is a fact, maybe a minor factor but as a noob I had alotta skips but eventually whatever obscure muscles ya use pushing/pulling that record will become more developed and you'll have smoother control of the record.

 

[Murahachibu]

shold the main siver part of the weight where it is and then turn the black plastic collar to now be at zero. now turn the entire weight to 3.0 grams or so and you should be good to go. hth
jeff h

Thanks man. That was the problem. One question for you. The whitelabels came with that little screw driver for adjusting the needle. I'm a little nervous about messing with that. Is it necessary?

BTW, even though I thought I had too much weight on, I don't think I had nearly enough. It sounds great at 3 grams!! Thanks!!!

 

[dynagroove]

Thanks man. That was the problem. One question for you. The whitelabels came with that little screw driver for adjusting the needle. I'm a little nervous about messing with that. Is it necessary?

BTW, even though I thought I had too much weight on, I don't think I had nearly enough. It sounds great at 3 grams!! Thanks!!!

don't worry about adjusting the screw. Shure sets it right in the middle and you should not need to adjust it. glad things are now working.

jeff h

 

[Murahachibu]

don't worry about adjusting the screw. Shure sets it right in the middle and you should not need to adjust it. glad things are now working.

Thanks again. I am absolutely loving these white labels now. I'm glad I decided to spend the extra cash for them right up front.

 

[mix]

Well, the shures whitelabels is designed for little wear on the records due to its eliptical designed stylus.
Are you just mixing or scratching? If scratching, then Qbert (in his QBERT DIY Vol. 1 DVD) says: basically unwind the whole counter-balance, turn it back to front and push/wind it in until you feel a "click".
CHEERS, hope that helps!

 

[dynagroove]

the whitelabels use a spherical sylus, not eliptical. the reversal of the counterbalance may work great for Qbert when using the 447 in a specific headshell, but this is not something that is a rule for any cartridge/stylus. i highly recommend against 1. reversing the counterbalance and slamming it forward and 2. jacking the height of the arm up as high as it will go. all this stuff looks really cool, but has no regard for how a turntable works. here's a little info on how a stylus works: http://www.micrographia.com/projec/projapps/viny/viny0300.htm all the pages are an interesting read. what is most interesting from this page is the calculation of 1.5g of stylus pressure translating to 340 lbs/sq. inch - that's a lot of weight. multiply that by 2, 3, 4 or who knows how much by reversing the weight and then slamming it forward. i like my vinyl - don't you? the book of shure is an interesting read as well which is biased towards dj's: http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Products/us_pro_djlibrary_bookshure

jeff h

 

[mix]

the whitelabels use a spherical sylus, not eliptical. the reversal of the counterbalance may work great for Qbert when using the 447 in a specific headshell, but this is not something that is a rule for any cartridge/stylus. i highly recommend against 1. reversing the counterbalance and slamming it forward and 2. jacking the height of the arm up as high as it will go. all this stuff looks really cool, but has no regard for how a turntable works. here's a little info on how a stylus works: http://www.micrographia.com/projec/projapps/viny/viny0300.htm all the pages are an interesting read. what is most interesting from this page is the calculation of 1.5g of stylus pressure translating to 340 lbs/sq. inch - that's a lot of weight. multiply that by 2, 3, 4 or who knows how much by reversing the weight and then slamming it forward. i like my vinyl - don't you? the book of shure is an interesting read as well which is biased towards dj's: http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Products/us_pro_djlibrary_bookshure

jeff h

The counterweight is not "slammed" forward. On this assumption, of course he would think it places excessive track force on the vinyl. This is not true. If the counterweight is reversed and screwed in until a click is felt- it is around the tracking force range between 1.5-3g (http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Products/DJPhonoCartridgesAndNeedles/us_pro_WHLB_content).


A good site to check out to see how phono catridges work can be found here: http://www.shure.com/PersonalAudio/Products/Phono/HowPhonoCartridgesWork/index.htm

It's also true that the Whitelabels was designed for the club scene, however it doesnt mean you're not able to scratch on them. The m44-7 and whitelabel styli have similar designs. It has the same operational properties. My previous post was a comparison between the two Shure catridges and not a general discussion of all catridges that are available on the market.

I see you like to give advice jeff h, me too: Read your posts correctly.

 

[dynagroove]

The counterweight is not "slammed" forward. On this assumption, of course he would think it places excessive track force on the vinyl. This is not true. If the counterweight is reversed and screwed in until a click is felt- it is around the tracking force range between 1.5-3g (http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Products/DJPhonoCartridgesAndNeedles/us_pro_WHLB_content).


A good site to check out to see how phono catridges work can be found here: http://www.shure.com/PersonalAudio/Products/Phono/HowPhonoCartridgesWork/index.htm

It's also true that the Whitelabels was designed for the club scene, however it doesnt mean you're not able to scratch on them. The m44-7 and whitelabel styli have similar designs. It has the same operational properties. My previous post was a comparison between the two Shure catridges and not a general discussion of all catridges that are available on the market.

I see you like to give advice jeff h, me too: Read your posts correctly.

ok, you got me - i missed the part about pushing/screwing the counter-weight on until a click is felt.

that still doesn't matter one bit. if you understand how the Technics counter-weight assembly is contstructed, the inner bore of the weight has a spiral groove that clicks in place with a spring on the back of the arm. if you push or screw the counter-weight on to the back of the tonearm (regardless of the direction - forward or reverse) the click will occur randomly. the weight will always be different each time you screw it on until it clicks.

just for the hell of it, i tried it anyway. i got out my Shure SFG-2 stylus force gauge which will only read from 1 to 3 grams. i checked out the WHLB cart as it sat on my deck with 3g per setting by the standard method - right on at 3g. then i took the counter-weight, reversed it and pushed until it clicked. when i measured the force, it was well over 3g and judging by how fast the scale dropped, it was over 3.5g as well. then i grabbed my M447 mounted to a standard Technics headshell. i left the counter-weight right where it was - reversed. same exact counter-weight setting as the Whitelabel and the force came out at 1.2g. so that's over 2g difference between the two cartridges. one cart high out of spec and the other low out of spec. running either of these carts with this setup is bad. so you are telling me that the WHLB cart will have the same operational properties with over 2g of additional weight and that the extra weight is not a big deal? even though the stylus design may be similar, the rest of the cart is not designed the same.

you can certainly scratch with the WHLB, that was never up for debate. my point is that it is advantageous to know exactly how much tracking force is being used. it's very easy to reverse the counter-weight and know exactly how much tracking force is being applied to the stylus - use a $20 tracking force gauge.

jeff h