Jay-Z is "a joke" - Sage Francis a truly great rapper?

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Project Girl

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I am in an ongoing debate with somebody over music and I'd be interested in intelligent, thoughtful feedback on it.

When I told this person that I like a lot of Jay-Z's music (not saying he's "the best" or anything like that - I just think he makes some good music and I like it), this person began proclaiming that (in his words) Jay-Z is nothing but "a joke" and that his work is without any merit whatsoever, literally "garbage".

Now, if this was just an opinion, I'd be FINE with it. Everybody likes different music. It's personal and subjective. But this person insists that anyone who does enjoy's Jay-Z's music is completely lacking in musical taste. In other words, nobody else should like his music either, and if they do, they have no taste.

He says that "in 10 years, Jay-Z will be considered in the same category with Milli Vanilli".

(Please note, this is entirely about *music* itself, not about the character or personality of the musician.)

On the other hand, this person holds up this guy Sage Francis as an example of truly great rap music.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sage_Francis

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Sage Francis apparently talks sh1t about Jay-Z regularly. Not that he would be likely to have the opportunity, but even if he did, he declines to battle any other MCs at all.

This person quotes "lots of people" who feel agree with him, and continues to insist that anyone who even respects Jay-Z's music just doesn't know what they're talking about.

Like I said, just interested in people's take on this, and please, let's be intelligent and civil about it. :-)

PG
 
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never listened to sage francis's music, but i've heard about him, but that attitude is whack, regardless of who you are and how good and different you think your music is, don't worry about the next man who's doin his thing, just do you. if sage francis really talks all that shyt, it comes off as jealousy to me, that jay's got all the success in the world, and this guy's still practically a nobody.
 
DeeBlaze33 said:
... but that attitude is whack, regardless of who you are and how good and different you think your music is, don't worry about the next man who's doin his thing, just do you..
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That's what bothers me, the attitude. I'll stay up all night defending somebody's right to love the music that they love (and not be told that they're "wrong"). It's like a basic human right. :-)

PG
 
Hmm...I think this person is nothing by a pompous music snob, who thinks "da underground" is the only rap worth listening to.

It sounds like to me that you should provoke him and get him really worked up, say sh!t like, "Sage Francis is actually pretty bad. It's not opinion, it's a fact". And get really rude about it. Then when he starts coming up with an argument, reply to him that you're only acting as he acted, and that if what you said bothered him, he should think twice before slandering music left and right as if the artist he hates is generally agreed to be bad.

Then slap his face and kick him in the groin. F*ck music snobs.
 
Just resort to name calling and call him a backpacker...

u can also bring this up from that wiki article:
Whilst eschewing the label of being straight edge, Francis abstains from drinking alcohol and taking drugs. In response to his refusal to identify as straight edge, Francis stated that one should not "define yourself by what you don't do" in an interview by Headcase Live. Along with his abstinence from intoxicants, he also often references his vegetarianism in his lyrics and has appeared in promotional material for PETA. In 2006, he featured in PETA's "sexiest vegetarian" competition. Francis used his website to encourage people to vote for him in the male category, and Natalie Portman, (with whom he has a slight obsession, mentioning her in lyrics, and even going as far as selling a t-shirt, parodying André the Giant Has a Posse, with the words "Natalie Portman has a stalker" written next to a picture of his face) in the female category.

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wow, what a cool guy...
 
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wan-tan-soup14 said:
Hmm...I think this person is nothing by a pompous music snob, who thinks "da underground" is the only rap worth listening to.
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I think you've hit the nail on the head. God forbid anybody should actually make it to where they don't need a day job anymore - then they're not all underground anymore.

It sounds like to me that you should provoke him and get him really worked up, say sh!t like, "Sage Francis is actually pretty bad. It's not opinion, it's a fact". And get really rude about it.
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LOL.. that's pretty much what I've been doing. But honestly, it's not much fun acting like an arrogant snob, ya know?

... F*ck music snobs.
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I'm starting to feel really strongly about this. NOBODY has the right to say what is "good" music and what isn't - not for any reason, including the "critic's" credentials. Even if Ray Charles, Tupac, Aretha and John Coltrane all told me a song was great, I would still listen and form my own opinion. So the opinions of most normal people weigh about, let's see, around NOTHING AT ALL.

And I think anybody who doesn't get that is a dumbass who I'm not interested in discussing music with. :-)

PG

Jersey8five6 said:
Just resort to name calling and call him a backpacker...

u can also bring this up from that wiki article:
Whilst eschewing the label of being straight edge, Francis abstains from drinking alcohol and taking drugs. In response to his refusal to identify as straight edge, Francis stated that one should not "define yourself by what you don't do" in an interview by Headcase Live. Along with his abstinence from intoxicants, he also often references his vegetarianism in his lyrics and has appeared in promotional material for PETA. In 2006, he featured in PETA's "sexiest vegetarian" competition. Francis used his website to encourage people to vote for him in the male category, and Natalie Portman, (with whom he has a slight obsession, mentioning her in lyrics, and even going as far as selling a t-shirt, parodying André the Giant Has a Posse, with the words "Natalie Portman has a stalker" written next to a picture of his face) in the female category.

​
wow, what a cool guy...
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ROFLMAO.... I saw that too. "Sexist vegetarian alive", and an admitted stalker - holy crap, that's hotness personified, eh? LOL

PG
 
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You many not agree with his subject matter, but to say that Sage Francis is anywhere as good as Jay-Z is a phucking joke. There are alot of notable and good artists from the independant scene but alot of them are just as corny as that laffy taffy ****. Always talking about hip hop this, true school that, stfu and make some music about something other than how much you "keep it oldschool". Sounds just as played out as being blinged out. I'm not saying Sage is whack, but this fella that says Jay-Z is complete garbage seems like one of those type of cats.
 
these days mainstream talks about ice,money,hoes and back packers complain about how all they talk about is ice, money, hoes.
 
Project Girl said:
ROFLMAO.... I saw that too. "Sexist vegetarian alive", and an admitted stalker - holy crap, that's hotness personified, eh? LOL

PG
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i know, i think the only word to describe all these backpakin ass Anticon fools is this: "Nerd"

he made t shirts about "Natalie Portman has a stalker?? how much of a nerd do u have to be to go to those lengths? and then how much more nerdy are the groupies that [probably] bought those shirts?
 
Music is subjective, gravity is not!

This topic is a lil MEH!

Underground snobs will always be with us. Sage has a few ok songs, but HOV he is not. Yes, anyone can score a hit or maybe even two, but HOV has owned the game for ten years. He has showed maturation over the last few years, which very few rap artist do. Regardless of how anyone feels about hov, it takes talent to last that long on top in urban music.

Will sage ever be anything more than an underground rapper? I dunno...

Kingdom Come solidifies HOV as the greatest commercial rapper of all time!
 
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why do i have a feeling that some of the guys that say they stopped listening after reasonable doubt only heard it a couple years ago.
 
quezoxx said:
You many not agree with his subject matter, but to say that Sage Francis is anywhere as good as Jay-Z is a phucking joke. There are alot of notable and good artists from the independant scene but alot of them are just as corny as that laffy taffy ****. Always talking about hip hop this, true school that, stfu and make some music about something other than how much you "keep it oldschool". Sounds just as played out as being blinged out. I'm not saying Sage is whack, but this fella that says Jay-Z is complete garbage seems like one of those type of cats.
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Good points, thanks! I'm starting to think maybe I wasn't nuts to be annoyed by this sh1t. :-)

PG
 
I have a friend that let me hear sage Francis I really didn't care for it he has a degree in philosophy or something and I just didnt care for what he was saying in his songs.
 
Straight Edge is another term for square isn't it? Truthfully neither is better so the argument is a mute point. Oh ya, I wouldn't diss Sage Francis too much or your friends head would liikely explode.
 
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TheRiddler said:
Straight Edge is another term for square isn't it? Truthfully neither is better so the argument is a mute point.
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The thread isn't about "which is better". I can see how it would easily devolve into that, esp. if people miss reading the actual post.

PG
 
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