Are hip hop producers really musicians?

infradead said:
This is where the word subjective comes into play.

You say it's not music and it's missing quite a few things that would make it music and I don't care.



Here is something by Karl Stockhausen who is regarded as one of the most important composers of the 20th century.

Is it music?

Karlheinz Stockhausen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Nope. Not that example there, no. Find me a definition of music that describe what I heard and I'll stand corrected.
Otherwise, thats like me saying I'm a millionaire just cause I wanna say I'm a millionaire, but I dont actually subscribe to the actual definition of what a millionaire is, but just because I feel like I have a wealth of ideas, millions, I can just say that I am. **** no.
 
This has been interesting tho. Before today I didnt know about any of those sound composer dudes and people considering what they do music.
That's why I rocks with this site, cause tend to learn new shit. But yeah after listening to them and looking at those Wiki links I immediately thought of Edgar Winter.

I guess this is where the subjective part comes in, to me, Winter took that concept of what those guys were doing and actually made the shit into music.



After some more googlin and shit the term "perceive" popped up a few times, so Infradead has a point, that I can respect. Dont agree, but I can respect.
 
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McLovin Beatz said:
Nope. Not that example there, no. Find me a definition of music that describe what I heard and I'll stand corrected.
Otherwise, thats like me saying I'm a millionaire just cause I wanna say I'm a millionaire, but I dont actually subscribe to the actual definition of what a millionaire is, but just because I feel like I have a wealth of ideas, millions, I can just say that I am. **** no.
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Um nope. This is a horrible analogy why would you try and confuse this with subjective and quantitative ideas.

Do you have a 1,000,000 dollars? Not a millionaire, period. Sorry but it's a set amount

Is it music? You say no I say yes. That's subjective and up for debate, though the Stockhausen not being music is personally hilarious.
 
infradead said:
Um nope. This is a horrible analogy why would you try and confuse this with subjective and quantitative ideas.

Do you have a 1,000,000 dollars? Not a millionaire, period. Sorry but it's a set amount

Is it music? You say no I say yes. That's subjective and up for debate, though the Stockhausen not being music is personally hilarious.
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Definitively, both Stockhausen and hip hop producers are musicians. Not even sure how one can make a debate out of this.
 
infradead said:
Um nope. This is a horrible analogy why would you try and confuse this with subjective and quantitative ideas.

Do you have a 1,000,000 dollars? Not a millionaire, period. Sorry but it's a set amount

Is it music? You say no I say yes. That's subjective and up for debate, though the Stockhausen not being music is personally hilarious.
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Lol That was my point. Does the shit HAVE rhythm? Does the shit HAVE melody? Does the shit HAVE harmony?
If not then how the pfiduk could it be music? So now we saying music doesnt have to have these "set" things and it can just be whatever we want it to be as long as its a series of sounds?

I wholeheartedly disagree with that. I dont care who's well regarded, it doesnt fit the general definition of what it is. If that was music, then I'm a millionaire and pouring syrup on shit DOES make it pancakes.
 
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Thats right dammit, everyone knows you have to cook the shit and put butter on it first, then they are pancakes.
 
If people call it music, its music. That's the subjective reality and freedom of an artist.

You might not like it, but if a group of people outside of the artist view it as music, its music regardless of the definition.

Their have been plenty experimental groups, that were classified as musicians but produced sounds hostile to the ear.

People will be the judge, not u or me.

Art is about freedom on some levels.

I understand skills and building skills, but the production of art always allows for complete freedom.

Whether or not your creative production has valuable depends on other people:

Fans, critics, the industry, media, etc.
 
mwandishi said:
If people call it music, its music. That's the subjective reality and freedom of an artist.

You might not like it, but if a group of people outside of the artist view it as music, its music regardless of the definition.

Their have been plenty experimental groups, that were classified as musicians but produced sounds hostile to the ear.

People will be the judge, not u or me.

Art is about freedom on some levels.

I understand skills and building skills, but the production of art always allows for complete freedom.

Whether or not your creative production has valuable depends on other people:

Fans, critics, the industry, media, etc.
Click to expand...

What then would be the purpose for even having a definition for Music? What you described can literally be anything related to sound.

My radiator just came on, oh let me get my tape deck and microphone out to record this new exclusive.
 
McLovin Beatz said:
Music-The art of arranging sounds in time so as to produce a continuous, unified, and evocative composition, as through melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre.
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sorry your definition comes from where?

the more generally accepted definition of music (amongst music scholars for a start and many more besides) does not attach the qualifiers that you do

Music is sound structured in time (and is usually teamed with a definition of architecture as music in space)

otherwise we have to discount entire lines of musical development not found in the the western art or popular music traditions such as percussion ensembles (completely consisting of drums and rattles and shakers and unpitched bells)

to accept your overly constrained definition is to say that any drummers from Africa are not musicians or composers, not a debate I would like to enter into, given the large number of folks here at fp who are proud of their continental African heritage.

it would also mean denying "In C" by Terry Riley as being music as it has neither melody nor harmony (by your limited definition)

Let's go before Stockhausen to

Busoni, who are articulated a new Aesthetic of Music to include non-instrumental sound,

Russolo, who independently classified and defined the art of noise,

Schaeffer

Schaeffer - Orphée 53

Schaeffer - Apostrophe

Schaeffer - Études de bruits

Varese
Poème électronique

Ionisation

Amériques

Hyperprism

Ecuatorial

All of these are known as the original noise merchants in music, the dadaists and experimenters: what these people did is no different to what Marcel Duchamp did with the urinal and other mundane, commonplace items; transfer them from their normal context to a gallery and they are transformed into art: by changing the context of the sounds from the ordinary, the everyday, the background noise they are making it music.

it is also important to note that these individuals and their contemporaries are the reason why we have the technology we do today - without their quest for better ways to articulate their ideas without spending countless hours editing tape (read cutting it up and splicing it back together), the push to create analogue and later digital synthesisers and samplers would never have been on.

The sounds being made from me typing on the keyboard does not equate to music, just cause I feel it does.
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you obviously are unfamiliar with Leroy Anderson (the typewriter song) and Col Joye (Oh, Yeah, Uh, Huh), both of whom used a typewriter to provide rhythmic background for musical works - yes they contextualised it within the framework that you describe above, but that framework is limited and pushes a Western Art music agenda.
 
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bandcoach said:
sorry your definition comes from where?

the more generally accepted definition of music (amongst music scholars for as tart and many more besides) does not attach the qualifiers that you do

Music is sound structured in time (and is usually teamed with a definition of architecture as music in space)

otherwise we have to discount entire lines of musical development not found in the the western art or popular music traditions such as percussion ensembles (completely consisting of drums and rattles and shakers and unpitched bells)

to accept your overly constrained definition is to say that any drummers from Africa are not musicians or composers, not a debate I would like to enter into, given the large number of folks here at fp who are proud of their continental African heritage.

it would also mean denying "In C" by Terry Riley as being music as it has neither melody or nor harmony (by your limited definition)

Let's go before Stockhausen to

Busoni, who are articulated a new Aesthetic of Music to include non-instrumental sound,

Russolo, who independently classified and defined the art of noise,

Schaeffer

Schaeffer - Orphée 53

Schaeffer - Apostrophe

Schaeffer - Études de bruits

Varese
Poème électronique

Ionisation

Amériques

Hyperprism

Ecuatorial

All of these are known as the original noise merchants in music, the dadaists and experimenters: what these people did is no different to what Marcel Duchamp did with the urinal and other mundane, commonplace items; transfer them from their normal context to a gallery and they are transformed into art: by changing the context of the sounds from the ordinary, the everyday, the background noise they are making it music.

it is also important to note that these individuals and their contemporaries are the reason why we have the technology we do today - without their quest for better ways to articulate their ideas without spending countless hours editing tape (read cutting it up and splicing it back together), the push to create analogue and later digital synthesisers and samplers would never have been on.


you obviously are unfamiliar with Leroy Anderson (the typewriter song) and Col Joye (Oh, Yeah, Uh, Huh), both of whom used a typewriter to provide rhythmic background for musical works - yes they contextualised it within the framework that you describe above, but that framework is limited and pushes a Western Art music agenda.
Click to expand...

Lol I just googled it...and the first three results are all basically saying the same thing.

music - definition of music by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

Music - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Music | Define Music at Dictionary.com
 
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