Friend Does Not Believe That Subgenres Should Exist in EDM (or any other music)

Nexosaur

Multi-Genre Maker
I don't know where else to post this, but feel free to move it elsewhere if it needs to be.

I have a friend (also a producer), who seems to think there shouldn't be subgenres of EDM. He thinks it should all be like this chart:

|——————————EDM———————————|
dub step house trap
/ \ / \ / \
J U S T E N J O Y T H E M U S I C A N D M O V E O N

So I kept giving him reasons on why this just doesn't work and no one would ever be pleased by this and it didn't work. I told him that genres exist for the purpose of not getting an electro track after your deep house track if you don't like electro. I said that genres exist to tell people what to expect from the track, and that tracks are also defined by BPM. He thinks the idea is ridiculous, and said that a Glitch Hop track can be whatever tempo it wants and still be the same hop vibe. Well, no, because now it's just a different genre.

As good as "JUST ENJOY THE MUSIC AND MOVE ON" seems, it's horribly impractical. If every Youtube video with a genre next to the track was only three different genres, it'd be pretty hard to find something you're in the mood for. Imagine if Monstercat had to condense all of it's genres under these three. Well, **** no. Not ever. Future Bass would just be shoved with trap (which is a subgenre anyways as is dubstep, which I guess he seems to think is not true), all Drum and Bass would be Dubstep (he thinks drum and bass isn't a real genre. He thinks it's just faster dubstep with more drums despite after showing him that drum and bass has been around longer than dubstep).

All deep house, glitch hop, nudisco, prog house, electro, etc. would just be house. Well, know how will I find a song I like if it's all the same genre? My Haywire doesn't sit together with Televisor! They aren't the same!

He doesn't seem to understand the concept of why genres exist and how some people don't like certain genres and crap. He even did this after saying how he didn't really like the new Knife Party album that much. Really? You want a lack of genres so you can listen to something and then go "Gosh I wish I didn't have to listen to a track like this ever again! Oh, wait, there's only three genres! Guess I'll just never click on a house track again!"

It feels really ignorant to just go and say subgenres have no place. He even stated that they should this in all other works of music. All classical should be classical, no baroque or romantic, all country is only country (even though it's true), and all of X should only be X.

Any idea to get him to see how having more genres makes logical sense?

TL;DR: Friend doesn't understand why there are genres and thinks all EDM should just be Trap, Dubstep, and House. Any idea to get him to see how having more genres makes logical sense?
 
In short, it's not that big a deal. (just enjoy the music and move on)

Things will always always be put into a category.
 

I agree in a way. The more categories you have, the more you confuse the casual listeners. Only the hardcore listeners of a certain style of music really care about subgenres.

It is ironic that the people that complain the most about freedom, labels, and conformity seek to give up their freedom by putting labels on their music and conforming to a certain sound.
 
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I agree in a way. The more categories you have, the more you confuse the casual listeners. Only the hardcore listeners of a certain style of music really care about subgenres.

It is ironic that the people that complain the most about freedom, labels, and conformity seek to give up their freedom by putting labels on their music and conforming to a certain sound.

I agree that there shouldn't be SO many subgenres, but the ones that are most well-known are there for a reason. It's so even a casual listener (who still has the ability to dislike a particular style) can find out what they do or do not like. If you condensed it into three genres (three really bad genres for classification as well), then it just makes it harder.

Really, the genres is all about making sure people can avoid what they don't like and easily find things they like. If they don't exist, people find it hard to get what they're looking for. It's why there are specific kinds of toothpaste, for example. If someone needs a certain form of toothpaste, having all toothpaste labeled as toothpaste with no extra modifiers about it, they can't find what they're looking for.

I guess it could also be broken into a shoe analogy. Nike makes shoes. The wide broad spectrum of footwear. Then they make running shoes, cleats, flip-flops (I don't actually know what they make, but whatever), etc. Within the running shoes, they have various styles, and some are better for different people or made to be better at what they were made for. Within cleats, there are different ones like baseball, soccer, etc. In flip-flops there's something. Then there's superfluous stuff. Things like the style of tread on the running shoe or the exact way the cleats look on the shoe or whatever thing about the flip flop.

To sum it up, EDM has major genres (running shoes, cleats, flip-flops, etc.), which in turn has other genres in it that are widely varied enough to warrant a different category (different kinds of running shoes, cleats, flip-flops), and after that there's really no reason to keep going because Techno Electro Industrial is really not necessary.
 
In short, it's not that big a deal. (just enjoy the music and move on)

But that doesn't ever really work. We like to think about things. We don't leave it hanging or leave without thinking. Saying "enjoy the music and move on" isn't really going to happen to a normal person. If we find a song we like, we continue to listen, hear it multiple times—learn it.

The whole point of this was to see if anyone had any new ideas for me to tell my friend that categorizing is important in the music world. I'm trying to get him to see that it makes logical sense to have genres to classify music because we all have different tastes that can't be summed up into Trap, House, and Dubstep.
 
The thing is - EDM is not a genre.

I have no idea how to describe it (partly because I still haven't found the english translation for it), but EDM acts like an umbrella for a lot of different genres and subgenres, that may even not have that much in common, except that they together are danceoriented electronic music.
And this includes a lot of genres; House, Electro, Trap, DnB, Dubstep and most of its relatives, Hardstyle, and the list goes on.
And there are even subgenres to these mentioned genres that can't be considered being EDM, even though the top genre it's within, itself may be considered it, such as Chillstep (which I suppose goes under the huge Dubstep tree), or any other subgenre that's more aimed towards homelistening.

And to jump on the shoe-thing, EDM is more like a shoeshop that specialize in a certain type of shoes, like sporting shoes or whatever (or even just a shopping basket where you've shoven down everything that's suitable).

Not sure how applicable it is to the thread subject, but I felt the need to say it.
 
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genres and sub-genres are for those who like to engage in classifying and quantifying: it helps them to make sense of their world; for everyone else it is a label that may or not not be meaningful outside of being able to say "I like ambient" or "I like Techno" or "I like Future Garage" or whatever it is that an individual likes

EDM - Electronic Dance Music - is an umbrella term that does not reference a style or a genre but a means of production: the use of synthesisers whether hardware or software ()sequencers are a driving tool in this type of music, but you can also have the use of various controllers such as keyboards or guitars or pads or wind controllers like the wx7) and maybe voices; i.e. it points to the lack of people playing real instruments and points instead to the internal cohesion of works created purely in electronic form. It has been around since the '50's in one form or another (mostly as experimental music until the '70's) but was not categorised as EDM until late in the '80's/early '90's
 
I suppose it depends on your definition of Genre. EDM covers a number of different musical directions, I like to think of sub-genre as the evolutionary process of 'Genre' through the passage of time.

Your classical reference is especially relevant, from Gregorian chant right up to contemporaries like Thomas Newman, 800 years of classical music evolutionary process that reflects within the music quite differently, especially within the passing of each century.
If you can pin point the steps from origin to sub-genre, identify the differences over time, I can't see the problem.
If you still get nowhere, your friend is either ignorant, or too lazy to accept the validity of your viewpoint.
 

TL;DR: Friend doesn't understand why there are genres and thinks all EDM should just be Trap, Dubstep, and House. Any idea to get him to see how having more genres makes logical sense?
Make him listen to Miley Cyrus and tell him to STFU.
 
I think that rather than being divided first by tempo and drum pattern (which gives you the conventional subgenres: house has a 4 to the floor kick at ~120 ish beats per minute, modern day dubstep has half-time beats at ~140ish, Dnb has breakbeats at 170ish etc) and then by mood and sound (i.e. dividing house into deep house, electro, techno, minimal etc) you should divide by mood and sounds first, then by tempo + drum pattern

This means you put artists from different genres but the same mood together: so you might put skrillex et al with the electro house producers and aggressive dnb producers like noisia and make that one genre, and put skream and burial and calibre together and make that another genre etc.

This makes sense because people who like skrillex are also probably more likely to be noisia fans than skream fans.

The trouble is, that system only works if you're prepared to accept that there are a lot of tracks that are not 100% in 1 genre, so there'd be even more arguments about which genre x track is.

EDM is a genre. If rock is a genre and jazz are genres, then EDM can be a genre. Then house, dubstep etc are subgenres, just as you might have trad jazz, bebop, modal jazz etc as subgenres of jazz. You don't really need subgenres of subgenres, that's just a bit silly.
I do agree with OP's friend that dubstep is basically half-time drum and bass, and that there are too many subgenres, I just don't think the 3 genres should be dubstep, trap and house, they should be something better and based on mood rather than tempo.
 
The whole point of this was to see if anyone had any new ideas for me to tell my friend that categorizing is important in the music world.

You do not need to convince your friend of anything. His thoughts make sense to me. Categorizing stinks. He needs to be left alone because his opinion on the subject is the best opinion to have.
 
best opinion

Completely off-topic, but that is a contradictory statement. No one has the best opinion. Best is an opinion all its own. I don't think it's the best opinion because of the way I hear music and hear the large differences between genres and such.

But when you try to blanket entire large groups of music under three not very specific genres then it certainly helps no one. That would only work in some perfect world where everyone likes every kind of music. Too bad that wonderful thing can't ever happen.
 
Give this man a cookie!
Can I trade the cookie for a beer? Much more like it.

To answer the OP, I'll make a little comparison here. Tell your "friend" this:

You like to drink vodka with energetic drink and ice, right?

Then, you have tons of different vodka labels, each one with it's own characteristics, alcohol percentage, made from potatoes or wheat, etc.

Then, you have tons of different energetic drinks, each one with it's characteristics, taste, etc, etc, etc.

Then, you have ice that comes in all different shapes, but are basically water.

Now, you have this guy that LOVES vodka. He only drinks vodka, nothing else. Then, a friend of him introduce him to energetic drink. And he tought it would be a good idea to put som ice in it, jut to give that "chill" sensation. He proves it, and think it is wonderfully good! Then, he starts serving his friends this mix of vodka, energetic drink and ice. and his friends love it! Oh, the taste!

And then his friends start introducing this "new" beverage to their friends as well.

Now, imagine that a friend, from a friend, from a friend, from a friend of the guy who "invented" that mix starts calling it "EDM". And, when asked what makes part of this mix, he answers: "Oh, it's vodka, energetic drink and ice!"

"Ok, what brand of vodka?"
"I don't know! But why this matters?"
"It matters because they taste differently. The brand of the energetic drink as well, as they taste different, so these factors can change the taste of the mix"
"Bulls**t! It's all EDM!"

--

Let's name things now:

The vodka can also be called Drum and Bass, Jungle, Breakbeat, Dubstep, Garage and many others.

The energetic drink can also be called House, Electro-house, Trance, Techno and many others.

The ice can also be called as the Djs.

Now, the question:

Why is labeling necessary?

Well, a mix with Smirnoff, Red Bull and ice and a mix with Absolut, Monster and ice taste COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. That's why.
 
Can I trade the cookie for a beer? Much more like it.

To answer the OP, I'll make a little comparison here. Tell your "friend" this:

You like to drink vodka with energetic drink and ice, right?

Then, you have tons of different vodka labels, each one with it's own characteristics, alcohol percentage, made from potatoes or wheat, etc.

Then, you have tons of different energetic drinks, each one with it's characteristics, taste, etc, etc, etc.

Then, you have ice that comes in all different shapes, but are basically water.

Now, you have this guy that LOVES vodka. He only drinks vodka, nothing else. Then, a friend of him introduce him to energetic drink. And he tought it would be a good idea to put som ice in it, jut to give that "chill" sensation. He proves it, and think it is wonderfully good! Then, he starts serving his friends this mix of vodka, energetic drink and ice. and his friends love it! Oh, the taste!

And then his friends start introducing this "new" beverage to their friends as well.

Now, imagine that a friend, from a friend, from a friend, from a friend of the guy who "invented" that mix starts calling it "EDM". And, when asked what makes part of this mix, he answers: "Oh, it's vodka, energetic drink and ice!"

"Ok, what brand of vodka?"
"I don't know! But why this matters?"
"It matters because they taste differently. The brand of the energetic drink as well, as they taste different, so these factors can change the taste of the mix"
"Bulls**t! It's all EDM!"

--

Let's name things now:

The vodka can also be called Drum and Bass, Jungle, Breakbeat, Dubstep, Garage and many others.

The energetic drink can also be called House, Electro-house, Trance, Techno and many others.

The ice can also be called as the Djs.

Now, the question:

Why is labeling necessary?

Well, a mix with Smirnoff, Red Bull and ice and a mix with Absolut, Monster and ice taste COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. That's why.

What an imaginative, creative, modern, but relevant, metaphor, creatively coneceptualizing the relationships between Genre and sub-genres.
Someone needs to buy you that drink!
Is yours the Smirnoff, Red Bull and Ice, or the Absolut, Monster and ice.
I bet you drink either, but perhaps not the Vladivar, ROCKSTAR without Ice.:cool:
 
What an imaginative, creative, modern, but relevant, metaphor, creatively coneceptualizing the relationships between Genre and sub-genres.
Someone needs to buy you that drink!
Is yours the Smirnoff, Red Bull and Ice, or the Absolut, Monster and ice.
I bet you drink either, but perhaps not the Vladivar, ROCKSTAR without Ice.:cool:
You see, in THIS case I'm an "EDM" guy. Whatever vodka, with whatever energetic drink, WITH ice. But sometimes, I just drink vodka. And I never drink energetic drinks by itself.

Thinking on this metaphor, it's the same with the music I listen to.
 
Can I trade the cookie for a beer? Much more like it.

To answer the OP, I'll make a little comparison here. Tell your "friend" this:

You like to drink vodka with energetic drink and ice, right?

Then, you have tons of different vodka labels, each one with it's own characteristics, alcohol percentage, made from potatoes or wheat, etc.

Then, you have tons of different energetic drinks, each one with it's characteristics, taste, etc, etc, etc.

Then, you have ice that comes in all different shapes, but are basically water.

Now, you have this guy that LOVES vodka. He only drinks vodka, nothing else. Then, a friend of him introduce him to energetic drink. And he tought it would be a good idea to put som ice in it, jut to give that "chill" sensation. He proves it, and think it is wonderfully good! Then, he starts serving his friends this mix of vodka, energetic drink and ice. and his friends love it! Oh, the taste!

And then his friends start introducing this "new" beverage to their friends as well.

Now, imagine that a friend, from a friend, from a friend, from a friend of the guy who "invented" that mix starts calling it "EDM". And, when asked what makes part of this mix, he answers: "Oh, it's vodka, energetic drink and ice!"

"Ok, what brand of vodka?"
"I don't know! But why this matters?"
"It matters because they taste differently. The brand of the energetic drink as well, as they taste different, so these factors can change the taste of the mix"
"Bulls**t! It's all EDM!"

--

Let's name things now:

The vodka can also be called Drum and Bass, Jungle, Breakbeat, Dubstep, Garage and many others.

The energetic drink can also be called House, Electro-house, Trance, Techno and many others.

The ice can also be called as the Djs.

Now, the question:

Why is labeling necessary?

Well, a mix with Smirnoff, Red Bull and ice and a mix with Absolut, Monster and ice taste COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. That's why.

Best thing I read today haha!
 
I would say that the brand of vodka is electro house, deep house, trance etc.

Guess what? I don't care about brands of vodka: they all taste pretty much the same to me.
smirnoff + red bull = absolut +red bull
If you gave me one of each, I would really struggle to tell which was which and I wouldn't mind if I asked for one and was given another.
 
I would say that the brand of vodka is electro house, deep house, trance etc.

Guess what? I don't care about brands of vodka: they all taste pretty much the same to me.
smirnoff + red bull = absolut +red bull
If you gave me one of each, I would really struggle to tell which was which and I wouldn't mind if I asked for one and was given another.
That is completely fine, if you ask me. you don't need to know which tastes better once you got drunk enough! :P
 
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