Dvyce - You have made your point. Again, and without getting over technical, we live in an age where electronic security is paramount and there are very real reasons why e-mail alone is not reliable evidence. If this were not the case then the I.E.F.T.(Internet Engineers Task Force) would not advocate the use of PKI and e-Timestamping protocols that Emeraz have adopted to verify the authenticity of a file and the time it was created. Again, we are simply using technology that has been used to protect the security of EFTs in the banking and insurance sector, as well as by Governments all over the world for the last decade.
Here is the point you are missing:
(and, by the way, I never said email is going to help protect your copyright... I only said it is a more legit form of time stamping that your service... and since you don't under this very simple concept, I'll attempt to explain it to you again)
Your algorithm may be 100% uncrackable...
Your "technology" may be top notch...
BUT THE POINT IS:
YOU have no authority to vouch for anything...
Who cares if YOU (and any other unauthorized party) give your word that something was "timestamped"?
Nobody! (Well, nobody other than
you...)
Nobody who matters would care... not the Copyright office.
Just like nobody should care if I use some unhackable un crackable algorithm and timestamp files and give cretificates with "the Dvyce official copyright timestamp"!
Who gave ME the authority to give some official timestamp? Nobody! Worthless!
...and the "I.E.F.T" has absolutely no bearing on this...
You are correct in saying that we are not backed by any governmental body, the reason is that we are a private enterprise not a governmental agency. As a private body, if we were backed by any governmental agency, that would be a clear violation of Competition and Anti-trust law on both sides of the water. I don't know about you, but a lack of government "vouching" does not stop me from buying from i-tunes.
We do however fulfill all our legal obligation as a registered company with the CRO(company registers office)(E.U.) and our time-stamps comply with the framework for electronic signatures as developed by the 1996 W.I.P.O treaties and adopted by various legislation such as the E-Commerce Directive(2000) in the E.U, and The Electronic Signatures in Global and National Commerce Act, (2000) in the U.S.
You have no idea what you are talking about. There are no competition or antitrust issues here.
The government would need to "vouch" for you because you are claiming to provide some service that will be accepted as evidence in a court of law!
You need the government to say: "yes, we will honor this timestamp."
Understand?
What does buying from itunes have to do with this? They are not claiming that buying a song from them will al.ow you to get a governmental tax rebate or anything... You are talking complete nonsense with this itunes example. How can you not see how these are 100% unrelated?!?
If you were selling a timestamping algorithm for people to document dates for their own personal use so they can keep their files in order, then it would be fine.
But YOU are claiming that your service will hold water with the Copyright office. (it will NOT)
...and who cares if you fulfill your obligations as a corporate entity? It has absolutely nothing to do with this.
As previously stated we provide "proof of copyright", the expression of the idea in any form is the actual copyright, we obviously do not purport to create copyright as the artist has already done that, we provide the means of protecting the artist's I.P. rights.
You DO NOT provide "proof of Copyright"...
You do nothing but put your own time stamp on a file...
...a time stamp that holds absolutely no legal weight.
Like I said earlier: It holds no more legal weight than if I said "this file has the Dvyce timestamp"
...Even if i used the absolute best time stamp known to mankind, it would not matter... all that would do is insure that nobody will hack my worthless timestamp.
It is YOU and YOUR COMPANY that nobody has any reason to trust... your word holds no legal weight or authority in any court of law.
You can have the best secure unhackable algorithm in existence... but all you are protecting is a worthless unverafiable timestamp.
The truth is, you protect absolutely nothing.
Your paranoia about potential fraud and mismanagement by Emeraz and any other company for that matter is sensible, a little bit of skepticism is an important defense mechanism for all of us. The beauty about the Emeraz system is that you the artist have complete control over the Time-Stamp management, the process is completely transparent and can be verified by the user through our website at any time. If our clients do decide to opt for Emeraz management of their "proof of copyright time-stamps" then we take this very seriously. This valuable information is backed up on three separate servers in three independent locations across the globe. At any time and for no additional fee, our users can request to end this management service, upon which we provide them with all the seals they have created. These seals contain the exactly same information as if the user had stored the time-stamps themselves all along.
I am not paranoid...
I am simply telling you exactly what any court in the universe will tell you.
Once again, I can give you a printed certificate with a "seal" and even a custom hologram on special paper that cannot be duplicated and tell you your song was timestamped on a certain date...
I can also use that same certificate to verify that you are 10,000 years old... or you are the Queen of England... or that you live on the moon... or anything else...
...and I can put any date on it that you want... I can date it March 1st 1922... I can put that in a digital file too with the best encryption...
IT IS STILL WORTHLESS.
We have adequate insurance to insure that in the event of a business wind-up, all user who have opted for the copyright management option receive their proof of copyright time-stamps.
worthless
With regard to Dvyce not mentioning "cracking" our alogrithms, you did say "can you imagine anything easier to forge? I can't", which by default implies cracking because thats the only way a time-stamp can be forged. The bases of a time-stamp is that; should it be tested in court, the algorithm is run again on the original file, if the result(hash value/digital fingerprint) is different then it means that the file has been modified or is a copy. This is important because the time signature is linked specifically to the hash/value. In practical terms if two songwriters said they wrote the same song, both claiming priority and both had time-stamps, when the algorithm was run again the hash value produced will only match the original authentic time-stamp, thereby proving who at least sought copyright protection first.
It is irrelevant whether the ALGORITHM is good...
It is THE INFORMATION THAT YOU ARE SECURING that is unverafiable.
Whether it can be "cracked" is irrelevant"...
This is such a simple concept... how can you possibly not understand this?!?
Yes, copyrights registered with the U.S. copyright office are recognized by W.I.P.O member states but this does not mean they are superior to other forms of evidence outside of the U.S. While they are recognized they are not the "Holy Grail" of copyright protection that they are in the U.S. What is admitted into evidence is a matter for the national court to decide. If you continue to think provincially about protecting your I.P. rights(i.e. by assuming that U.S. copyright protection is all you need) while placing your music on a global forum then you risk jeopardizing your I.P. rights.
Your service is fundamentally flawed.
This has nothing to do with the particulars of US Copyright...
Based on simple and basic logic, the whole concept is flawed...
It would EASILY be torn apart in any court of law in the universe...
It is no better than having your mother go on the witness stand and say "my son wrote that song last week".
Your previous statement; "...there is no poor mans copyright or digital time stamping that will take the place of filing your copyright with the copyright office..." is untrue in this context! Secondly, Time-Stamping is not the same as your "poor mans copyright" which relates to e-mailing files. They are two distinct processes and as you have stated that you are an "actual US Lawyer who was a staff attorney at a very large record company" I presume you can see the importance of the distinction.
Yes, they are very different.
(and I never said an email would be good evidence)
What I said was that an email from a public server like yahoo or gmail is better evidence than YOUR service.
Infinitely better.
"Poor man's Copyright" relates to regular mail ("snail mail"), email, third party digital timestamping (as you provide), etc, etc...
The idea of "poor man's Copyright" is that a person is "too poor" to spend the money on filing a Copyright with the government so he uses some alternative method of "proving" a date of creation like mailing it to himself, emailing it or having it "timestamped" or whatever alternative method he chooses.
So, yes, YOU are providing nothing more than a "poor man's Copyright".
Dvyce - You have made your opinion on this matter, while sometimes informed and sometimes uninformed perfectly clear. We thank you for your comments.
Emeraz
I will explain the scenario where an algorithm like yours would be useful:
If you have a business that has particular trade secrets that you want to keep private, you could use something like this to keep things secure...
This is very different from a time stamp that could be used as a basis of fact in a lawsuit.
Seriously, this is such a simple concept... I can not believe that you don't see the distinction.
...or maybe you DO see the distinction, but in is not in your best interest to admit this.
---------- Post added at 11:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:43 AM ----------
Your service and services like it are the textbook definition of "poor mans's Copyright"... Trying to use some other method than an an actual copyright filing to prove something.
It will hold no more water than any other form of "poor man's copyright"...
It is all the same exact crap.
It does not matter if your particular "crap" has an "algorithm" attached to it.
---------- Post added 07-27-2010 at 02:20 PM ---------- Previous post was 07-24-2010 at 11:43 AM ----------
Different countries have different laws in place on how that country regulates the intellectual property of it's citizens.
England copyright laws are different than the us. International copyrights are inherently tricky.
A us lawyer usually will not know uk copyright laws clearly.
The reason poorman's copyrights are call that is because they don't work, ever! They will keep you poor.
Seek legal counsel in the country you are residing in and in the field you are working in.
Excellent post dwells, international copyright law is extremely complicated but a little research could turn out to be very valuable in the long run.
You are right, poor mans copyright (emailing etc) doesn't work. Use the technology banks and governments use and be sure you have yourself covered within your country and internationally.
Emeraz
Hi Dwells,
I just want to make sure you understand
why this stuff he is selling makes no sense...
This has nothing to do with the Copyright regulations of any particular country...
1. is it relevant that "banks and governments" use this "technology?
NO.
A bank uses encryption technology so nobody will steal account numbers or peoples private financial information.
A government uses encryption technology for the same reasons... to keep people from stealing government secrets...
If YOU had something you wanted to keep private, you can use some encryption technology to keep people from viewing it unless they had the passcode... or you could keep people from logging on to your computer unless they had the proper password...
with a timestamp for the date of your MP3, the issue is not that somebody is going to hack in and change the time stamp. Nobody is going to do that.
The issue is that you need to have a timestamp that is RECOGNIZED by the Copyright office (i.e., the Copyright office says "yes, we accept the timestamps from this person as being valid")...
If you are in court and they say: "why should we believe that you wrote this song on this date?"
and
you say: "because I have it timestamped by emeraz"
They would say: "who the hell is emeraz? I never heard of him? Why should I believe his word is worth anything?"
then you say: "ummm, well, he uses technology to make sure nobody hacks in and changes the timestamp. It is the same technology that banks and governments use!"
and they would say: "but who the hell is emeraz? and why would i accept his timestamp?"
IT IS NO BETTER THAN GOING TO THE BANK WITH EMRAZ AND PUTTING IT IN HIS SAFE DEPOSIT BOX (NOBODY CAN BREAK INTO THERE, BUT WHO CARES? IT DOES NOT MAKE IT ANY MORE VALID OF A TIMESTAMP)
IT IS NO BETTER THAN YOU PUTTING THE SONG IN YOUR NEIGHBOR'S GRANDMOTHER'S PANTIES WHILE YOUR AUNT WATCHES TO VERIFY THAT IT IS ACTUALLY IN THERE THEN SAYING IT IS SECURE BECAUSE NOBODY EVER GOES INTO HER PANTIES.
IT IS NO BETTER THAN ME OR YOU TIMESTAMPING IT AND USING ENCRYPTION TECHNOLOGY TO "PROTECT" IT... THE "ENCRYPTION TECHNOLOGY" IS IRRELEVANT.
2. Do the particular laws of any country regarding Copyright matter?
NO.
This is the most basic logic we are talking about here.
The point is: a random person/company "timestamping" something is worthless. No better than you, me, your mother, your 3rd grade teacher, your friend, a stranger or anybody random person "timestamping" something.
This will not hold up in ANY court.
You think somehow the Copyright office will say "we do not accept a postmark as a valid time stamp... but that guy's timestamp? Oh, yeah,
that is good. We accept that."
DON'T LET ANYONE FOOL YOU:
This falls under the definition of "poor man's copyright"
![[F_or_DEAF]](/forums/data/avatars/m/150/150788.jpg?1611618699){kind=avatar}
" (when EVERYBODY here knows that ANY mod will ban them for spamming of this sort and remove spam posts to keep FP organized) is just not the type of personality trait that makes me want to interact with someone... as mods, we don't get involved in that sort of stuff.