True or false?

I'm chiming in to simply say "My goodness, the return of DonaldCrunk!!!"

I like a lot of these ideas in sterility or in some kind of test lab, but we are talking about a new type of affordable synth market that's meant to satisfy a different kind of user, born in a different era with different sensibilities and needs.

Synths used to have um...64 presets (for those that had them). That was enough WHEN YOU WERE IN A BAND and a Bass Player did bass, Keyboardist added in, drummer did his thing and...and...and...

Now we have a one man band in effect. For the early days, it was marvelous to see a giant washing-machine-sized piece of gear on stage that did nothing but play a snare sound when you pressed down on the giant switch. That was marvelous. EVERY musician didn't build an entire studio to make a song.

We do that now. You mean EVERY PRODUCER on here is building an entire studio to make his music.
Never before did that happen. A bedroom studio was one ROMpler hooked up to pops stereo.

And you are expected to create (or manipulate) every sound yourself. much different demands on gear.
We use many more sounds since we build songs from SOUNDS and not IDEAS.

People aren't on here discussing song ideas and concepts, it's about What Sound, What Drums, What Synth- and yes, what preset? Moog listened to the intellectuals and purists and released the Voyager OS (old School) with no patches or presets. How did that work out? Roland did the SH-whatever that had no on-board patch storage. How did that work out? Like it or not, we (most of us consumers) use the PRESETS as a gauge of what the piece can do and many more that can program the hell out of a synth still use them as starting points.

When people watch these introductory videos they comment on the sound, not the sonic capabilities and lord help any company that uses a crappy song in their demo videos. Ask Alesis about releasing a synth with bad presets and amazing capabilities and features.

I think this will sell, but the only limiting factor is the lack of presets. It will turn many off.
Sound design is not part of everyone's workflow.
 
Griffin Avid said:
People aren't on here discussing song ideas and concepts, it's about What Sound, What Drums, What Synth- and yes, what preset? Moog listened to the intellectuals and purists and released the Voyager OS (old School) with no patches or presets. How did that work out? Roland did the SH-whatever that had no on-board patch storage. How did that work out? Like it or not, we (most of us consumers) use the PRESETS as a gauge of what the piece can do and many more that can program the hell out of a synth still use them as starting points.
Click to expand...

Agreed about the present-oriented current state of things, but those examples are pretty off. The Old School Voyager was a niche product to begin with - not intended for mass market appeal - and well, they've sold every one of them. So I guess it turned out pretty well. The last SH series Roland that didn't have a patch memory is the 101 from 1982...and is one of the most popular vintage analogs in the world.
 
I like that perspective on the OS. The question then would be, what exactly made it a niche product to begin with?

From SoundonSound: ...some amongst the analogue community worked themselves into a lather, convinced that grafting menus onto a Mini was tantamount to nailing a humbucker pickup to a Stradivarius. Some saw it as cheating to dial up a patch from memory rather than making your own, on the spot, every time.
The Minimoog Voyager OS may take an old school approach but it is, of course, brand spanking new. It's still essentially a Voyager, and therefore a far more complex design than the handful of transistors that comprised the original Mini. However, this Voyager has been stripped back to its analogue heart, losing the upgradable operating system, LCD, menus, patch memories, MIDI and even the (analogue) touch surface.


I was referring to the SH-201 and looked it up. It does say it has 32 presets. I thought it didn't have any. I was wrong.
Still 32 is a number that bears the point about what most of us desire as far as on-board sounds/banks are concerned.
 
Griffin Avid said:
I like that perspective on the OS. The question then would be, what exactly made it a niche product to begin with?

From SoundonSound: ...some amongst the analogue community worked themselves into a lather, convinced that grafting menus onto a Mini was tantamount to nailing a humbucker pickup to a Stradivarius. Some saw it as cheating to dial up a patch from memory rather than making your own, on the spot, every time.
The Minimoog Voyager OS may take an old school approach but it is, of course, brand spanking new. It's still essentially a Voyager, and therefore a far more complex design than the handful of transistors that comprised the original Mini. However, this Voyager has been stripped back to its analogue heart, losing the upgradable operating system, LCD, menus, patch memories, MIDI and even the (analogue) touch surface.


I was referring to the SH-201 and looked it up. It does say it has 32 presets. I thought it didn't have any. I was wrong.
Still 32 is a number that bears the point about what most of us desire as far as on-board sounds/banks are concerned.
Click to expand...

Most of the reviews in sound on sound always seem to me to be written with an agenda where by the factual element is dismissed as irrelavent twadle. Like the throw away comment about the Minimoog not being much more than a handful of Trasistors anyway. Most Vintage analog synths have far more "Hardware" inside than their modern counterparts. The fact that, for all that hardware they were simple in function doen't mean that the have less in them physicly.
How many so called modern analogs are exactly that? No software, DSP's DAC BLa BLa BLa Most uses modern electronic techniques to keep cost down. The best you can hope for these days Is a completely analog signal path.

Never Paid much attention to sound on sound reviews of gear that compares one to another unless its the Old/new version is better they've added X or get the older version it had X,Y,Z that the new version has done away with. Comparing one manufacturer to another is subjective as not everbody heres things the same.


I'm off now to bung a few components in a box hopefully if I shake it around just right I could end up with a Jupiter8
 
i think the 201 and the Mini OS sold relatively few units more due to factors other than patch memory - the OS was always intended to be a short run of synths, and they sold out relatively quickly (same with the Vger XL) . the 201 was just a plastic feeling poor sounding synth, but a few people like it. i don't know how to defend that one, as the 'analog purists' had no interest in it and even the casual buyer could tell it was a pretty cheap device.

we're just going to have to wait and see how the new 2012 crop of analogs like the MiniBrute sell. at the given price point of some of this stuff, i can't see how it would do poorly. the Doepfer Dark Energy semi-modular was a resounding success for them, so much so that running out of certain components has necessitated a complete redesign of the device. SOMEONE is buying this stuff, that much is obvious.


as mister avid pointed out, i haven't been around here much so i've lost touch with what this community is up to nowadays. i only know that my local hip hop radio station has long ago switched to playing synth-heavy party anthems rather than hip hop about 2 years ago. popular sound continues to evolve. piracy of music creation programs has become much more difficult, and will continue to. iOS devices are becoming indispensable for musicians in almost every genre - and analog hardware has made a big boy reentrance at this year's NAMM.

market forces from SOMEWHERE are at work here. we'll just have to see what that means for the music we listen to and enjoy over the next 10 years.


that was just a disconnected rant about everything. sorry. also, hello again everyone !
:monkey:
 
switched to playing synth-heavy party anthems rather than hip hop about 2 years ago. popular sound continues to evolve. piracy of music creation programs has become much more difficult, and will continue to. iOS devices are becoming indispensable for musicians in almost every genre - and analog hardware has made a big boy reentrance at this year's NAMM.

A fine summary indeed. the current landscape in 2 sentences.
I hope they do well and this trend continues.
The side effect and fallout from this might be the loss of the standalone drum machine.

That technology (or interest) seems to have advanced as far as it will for the near future.
as everyone seems to be sliding towards MIDI controllers.
Even AKAI hopped on that boat.

Tech trees are weird like that. The VHS/VCR stayed relatively unchanged for its entire life span. Sure, you had a couple of modes where you record crappy for a long time or descent quality for 2 hrs. I predicted that VCRs and DVRs would merge and you would see digital cassettes like thumb-drives that could store your recorded content.
I was wrong.

Instead VCRs died and DVRs make it almost impossible to offload your recorded content.
Same with car radios, I thought iPods would evolve and be able to record the radio.

I say to mean that analog stuff(s) are still enjoying a retro phase of going back and I wonder how soon before someone starts making analogs with no look to the past in any way. What filter does it have? A new one that is unique only to itself that years from now, people will refer to its filter by the name of the synth itself.

Now I'm changing too. When I wanted a KORG ES-X, I was debating between getting the Hardware or an iPad with the electribe App.
And I still think I might consider the app(s) more bang for the buck since I can get the iKaoss and iMS20 apps along with it for relatively cheap.
 
Last edited:
I agree. But personally I would rather have a high quality synth software and fantastic midi keyboard controller rather than a bulky synthesizer any day. Even though I have used them and enjoy playing around with them.
 
Griffin Avid said:
We use many more sounds since we build songs from SOUNDS and not IDEAS.

People aren't on here discussing song ideas and concepts, it's about What Sound, What Drums, What Synth- and yes, what preset? .
Click to expand...

Not strickly True.
You can Find a sound and think "Wow" and this goes on to inspire you come up with a bass line melody or Beat depending on what the sound is.
On the other hand you may already have the Idea and Know what the sound needs to be like so you go about making that sound then when you are playing that part back you can hear what you want on top of that so you make that sound too. Sometimes you can't get the sound you want exactly and settle for a preset or one you did earlier to take the creative process further. You may have wanted an spooky flute sound but settle on a Mimimoog lead from a softsynth. In a creative process the sound isn't the most important thing. after you have the basis of what your trying to do then you can fine tune your sounds so that they gel.
Can't remember the exact quote but John lennon said something like. " If you want me to write a song about Bananas i'll write you a song about Bananas" Most Classical composers wrote on a piano for an entire orchestra. It wasn't the sound of the orchestra enspiring them they basicly knew what the wanted to do.

---------- Post added at 12:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:23 AM ----------
protoolswiz said:
I agree. But personally I would rather have a high quality synth software and fantastic midi keyboard controller rather than a bulky synthesizer any day. Even though I have used them and enjoy playing around with them.
Click to expand...

I see where your coming from with this I was leaning the same way once but after a few crashes and a couple of Hard Drive failures If I was going to do any Live work It would have to be Hardware. I even built a hardware softsynth Player basicly a 61note midi controller ina synthstyle case with a 10.4" TFT touchpad. works great in a studio enviroment but sounds Shit through a PA.
 
Last edited:
Griffin Avid said:
I say to mean that analog stuff(s) are still enjoying a retro phase of going back and I wonder how soon before someone starts making analogs with no look to the past in any way. What filter does it have? A new one that is unique only to itself that years from now, people will refer to its filter by the name of the synth itself.
Click to expand...

this is interesting. have there been any really new analog filters?

totally new different than anything else out there. maybe metasonix Eric Barbor's tube based designs are pretty different than anything else i've played with. but i wouldn't doubt if you looked into it the theory was talked about in electronotes at some point

the harvestman's bionic lester is using a pretty different filter topography than really anything else out there but it is by no means new, just no one is doing it.

there are a lot more tweaks and little changes to existing filter topographies in the analog world it seems. i think one thing to consider is that the people who are making these products are very aware of the history and respectful of it. they may take an existing design and use it in there circuits but they by no means claim to have invented it a whole new process.
 
The Metasonix stuff has always been as far left field as I can imagine. Have you seen that new drum machine that came out, like a year ago?
I thought wow, this is really outside the box and then I heard it and thought um..too far outside the box.
Screeches, whelps, yelps and high-pitched noise is different, but I don't know how a person using it can make it work.

I think there's a little sweet spot between cost and features that's apparently hard to land in.
I like what Studio Electronics does with the filter cards so you customize the synth a good deal.

In a creative process the sound isn't the most important thing. after you have the basis of what your trying to do then you can fine tune your sounds so that they gel.

I didn't mean to state an absolute law about how beats are made. It's just that SO MUCH is based on using sounds like the ones that are um..already being used.
And I guess there's nothing wrong with that, but I don't know. I wonder if everyone reaching for the same sounds limits the manufacturers or are we limited by what the sound designers slap inside their synth.

It's a circle. They design presets to match what's hot. We build sounds using the most popular gear that's being used in... the... hot ...songs.

You find these funny moments like using a ROMpler or Synthesizer and seeing a preset named after another synth you own.

So okay, producer A spent the last 6 months trying to master the southern-snare-roll. Great. Now he has 36 beats that no one is interested in.
Before that he made 22 beats with a soulful sample at the start of his beat cause that was poppin. Somewhere in his library of beats are a slew of tracks with Scott Storch strings cause that was the sound for a minute.

That same guy spent 3 years looking for a Triton in software.
Remember the hunt for a worthy software ROMpler?

Well, that's dead and synthy-electronic sounds are the trend.

Oh no wait, wasn't it about the Dubstep bassline 2 months ago?

I would love songs and beats return to being about something.
I don't mean the artist makes the track about something, I mean the producer/beat-smith MAKES THE TRACK ABOUT SOMETHING.
 
Last edited:
;)

weekly-tubes-500x281.jpg


metasonix shit is special. its different. its not something that use and it just sounds good you have to find the sweet spots. my kv-100 can go from voodoo duck farts to angels singing with the twist of a knob and little CV. also it has actual cartoon animal testicles on wtf?

one thing i do see in your statement is the thing about hot sounds, and i see that is a limitation that way to many people are putting on themselves. they have to have the hot sounds, they have to have something that's currant or popular. its a limit and a self imposed one. now i know that i have limits but mine end up being imposed on me by what i'm working with. lack of VCAs, another sample and hold would be nice, only one sequencer, not enough CV mixers, and so on. rather then trying to be interested in their music they are wanting to make something that interests other people.

Griffin Avid said:
The Metasonix stuff has always been as far left field as I can imagine. Have you seen that new drum machine that came out, like a year ago?
I thought wow, this is really outside the box and then I heard it and thought um..too far outside the box.
Screeches, whelps, yelps and high-pitched noise is different, but I don't know how a person using it can make it work.

I think there's a little sweet spot between cost and features that's apparently hard to land in.
I like what Studio Electronics does with the filter cards so you customize the synth a good deal.

In a creative process the sound isn't the most important thing. after you have the basis of what your trying to do then you can fine tune your sounds so that they gel.

I didn't mean to state an absolute law about how beats are made. It's just that SO MUCH is based on using sounds like the ones that are um..already being used.
And I guess there's nothing wrong with that, but I don't know. I wonder if everyone reaching for the same sounds limits the manufacturers or are we limited by what the sound designers slap inside their synth.

It's a circle. They design presets to match what's hot. We build sounds using the most popular gear that's being used in... the... hot ...songs.

You find these funny moments like using a ROMpler or Synthesizer and seeing a preset named after another synth you own.

So okay, producer A spent the last 6 months trying to master the southern-snare-roll. Great. Now he has 36 beats that no one is interested in.
Before that he made 22 beats with a soulful sample at the start of his beat cause that was poppin. Somewhere in his library of beats are a slew of tracks with Scott Storch strings cause that was the sound for a minute.

That same guy spent 3 years looking for a Triton in software.
Remember the hunt for a worthy software ROMpler?

Well, that's dead and synthy-electronic sounds are the trend.

Oh no wait, wasn't it about the Dubstep bassline 2 months ago?

I would love songs and beats return to being about something.
I don't mean the artist makes the track about something, I mean the producer/beat-smith MAKES THE TRACK ABOUT SOMETHING.
Click to expand...
 
Please don't tell me that's a picture of your set up.
[Right clicks - {Save Image As} and faints]
 
Last edited:
Griffin Avid said:
Please don't tell me that's a picture of your set up.
[Right clicks - {Save Image As} and faints]
Click to expand...

lol

my modular is big but i've sold off everything else. all my computer is used for as a giant stereo recorder. i have no midi anymore and everything is done either live or sequenced with CV. its pretty fun though kinda hard when someone asks me how i play note
"well i don't really. i lightly steer it and it plays itself."
great for noise, drone, and now that i have some modular drums technoish stuff.

more pics here
Growth of a modular: Or how I learned to take a sack lunch to work every day. - Home of nonsense and modulars since 1887

also modular is comparable to crack. dead serious. you always need one more module.... then a new case.... then you have the empty new case and need more modules... then the case is full so you need a new one... this is kind of a problem, but a fun one.
 
True!!!! There's no way you can grab joe bloggs off the street (or even out of the studio) and have them get a sound out of a modular synth! It takes time and a thirst for knowledge- you need to know what goes on under the hood. That said its still the same if you want to get the best out of a soft synth.... If you do actually program them yourself.. Shocker!!
i was actually looking at the minibrute and it looks like an amazingly affordable, compact and flexible synth, perfect for gigs in every way...... Apart from No Presets?? by that I don't mean pre programmed patches by skrillex I mean the capabilit to save patches yourself to recall for different songs. But I did use to gig with a sh09 and found that really exciting and it forced me to really learn the synth so I could reprogram it in the blink of an eye.
 
Last edited:
Griffin Avid said:
The Metasonix stuff has always been as far left field as I can imagine. Have you seen that new drum machine that came out, like a year ago?
I thought wow, this is really outside the box and then I heard it and thought um..too far outside the box.
Screeches, whelps, yelps and high-pitched noise is different, but I don't know how a person using it can make it work.

I think there's a little sweet spot between cost and features that's apparently hard to land in.
I like what Studio Electronics does with the filter cards so you customize the synth a good deal.

In a creative process the sound isn't the most important thing. after you have the basis of what your trying to do then you can fine tune your sounds so that they gel.

I didn't mean to state an absolute law about how beats are made. It's just that SO MUCH is based on using sounds like the ones that are um..already being used.
And I guess there's nothing wrong with that, but I don't know. I wonder if everyone reaching for the same sounds limits the manufacturers or are we limited by what the sound designers slap inside their synth.

It's a circle. They design presets to match what's hot. We build sounds using the most popular gear that's being used in... the... hot ...songs.

You find these funny moments like using a ROMpler or Synthesizer and seeing a preset named after another synth you own.

So okay, producer A spent the last 6 months trying to master the southern-snare-roll. Great. Now he has 36 beats that no one is interested in.
Before that he made 22 beats with a soulful sample at the start of his beat cause that was poppin. Somewhere in his library of beats are a slew of tracks with Scott Storch strings cause that was the sound for a minute.

That same guy spent 3 years looking for a Triton in software.
Remember the hunt for a worthy software ROMpler?

Well, that's dead and synthy-electronic sounds are the trend.

Oh no wait, wasn't it about the Dubstep bassline 2 months ago?

I would love songs and beats return to being about something.
I don't mean the artist makes the track about something, I mean the producer/beat-smith MAKES THE TRACK ABOUT SOMETHING.
Click to expand...

As you quoted me I thinks it only fair I return the favour.
You point out that a lot of time can be wasted getting things to sound just so! But by the time you've done that you've missed the boat so to speak.
Remember " You Can't polish a Turd"
My point was its better to finish the arrangment see if its going to work or not, then go back and tweek the way it sounds or the sounds your using.
I prefer to write everthing myself rather than splicing a few samples together to make a loop.
Although if the technology is there then it is stupid to poo poo it if it sounds good?
when i've used drum loops I always think "yeah that sounds pretty good" but something inside says " You F****ng cheat, that not yours "
Then again if that is your vehicle to promote your artistic input " Your latest Rap" then great. Many people have made lots of money producing songs that they didn't play a note on. And some have gone on to loose the lot when they get sued by the original Artist. "Marrs Pump up the volume" sued for the use of 2 seconds of Roadblock by Stock Aitkin and Waterman. It all depends on what the O/Artist thinks of what you have done with all their hard work. If they like it they'll grant permission of use and settle for a small royalty. If they hate it your gettin sued.
 
Last edited:
Shit I want a minibrute. Its not on the top of my to do list but its on there

---------- Post added at 12:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:44 PM ----------
infradead said:
lol
my modular is big but i've sold off everything else.
Click to expand...

Big is an understatement. I came to his studio one day a few months ago his modular is huge and impressive. Did you sell that 505 too?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top