Wide stereo image on that snare

[Gloopikat]

Hello everyone, glad to be posting here for the first time!

What's your take on stereo-widening sustained drum sounds, like white noise snares? I can't post a link, as it's my first post, but I'm specifically talking about the track Gravity Well - Max Cooper (Microtrauma Remix). I think I hear two slightly different frequencies on either side, but maybe one side is slightly offset...?

I've passed the stage of trying to use delays as sends to try and offset the wet signal, panning to one side (while panning the original to the other), as that clearly doesn't work for repeating sounds and the whole thing is a phasing mess when mixing in mono. Also, Reason 4 (I sketch here) doesn't have a phase-flipping feature, so I'm not going down the route of flipping + offsetting either.

I could re-import a copy as a phase-flipped sample, but that wouldn't do, because I use a synth to automate the snare's envelopes. So, any ideas on which tricks were used in that track, or techniques you use, would be much appreciated. Thank you for your time!

 

[D-Funkdafied]

If you want a cool wide kick/snare sound you mustn't use an imager. It doesn't work well.
I just copy and paste the snare for example and make two separate pads of the same snare but one pad panning left and the other panning right.
Easy as that really.

 

[Gloopikat]

Thanks, actually I don't use an imager for that. But nor would I double+pan the same sound, as essentially all it does is double the gain, it's a mistake to think it fattens the the sound up. I'm looking for a technique that would produce a chorus effect without resorting to either the Haas effect or the similar technique of stereo separation where one side of the signal is phase-flipped and delayed by 1-5ms. The track I mentioned above uses a similar technique and I'm trying to figure out what that is.

 

[Magiciian]

Try the dual pan method but dont pan them harshly. If you want a slight chorus effect on on your snare try looking for the pitch wheels, bringing one of them down around 7-15 cents and the other up 7-15 cents.

Ima try that now actually lol.

EDIT: I am using 2 panned white noise snare synths on top of a low end snare and a clap layered together. By slightly low passing one snare (the right in my case) I found it gives a lot more body to the snare. It sounds similar to the one you would hear in Above & Beyond's "Sun & Moon"

 

[bandcoach]

if you want it to chorus, apply a chorus device to it instead of trying to reinvent the wheel - work smarter, not harder

 

[Gloopikat]

Magician - thanks. I'm nor sure I can mess about with the cents, as this is white noise after all. But the idea with slightly differing frequencies is something I'm trying right now, with varying results.

Bandcoach - thanks. I wouldn't bother the forum if it were a matter of just slapping a Chorus or a Unison (does a similar thing in Reason) on a snare. But it creates small fluctuations which are still audible, not to mention visible, if you look at the momentary wobble between the left and right channels.

I wish I could post a link to show exactly what I mean... but hold on, I just need 5 posts to do this. This is my 4th...

---------- Post added at 08:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:13 PM ----------

Something is really wacky with the fonts here, sorry, it posted all weird. But here's what I mean: Max Cooper - Gravity Well (Microtrauma Remix) - YouTube

As you can no doubt hear through either headphones or monitors, both sides differ in both frequency and slightly in time. All I'm looking for is how to achieve that effect without phasing issues in mono. Thanks.

 

[D-Funkdafied]

if you want it to chorus, apply a chorus device to it instead of trying to reinvent the wheel - work smarter, not harder

Applying a "chorus" does not just make it a suitable for the chorus. Chorus is just an effect as a phaser is, delay is, distortion etc. If you think the chorus needs more then add and extra background instrument just for the chorus only.

 

[bandcoach]

gloopikat said

I'm looking for a technique that would produce a chorus effect without resorting to either the Haas effect or the similar technique of stereo separation where one side of the signal is phase-flipped and delayed by 1-5ms...

to which I replied

if you want it to chorus, apply a chorus device to it instead of trying to reinvent the wheel - work smarter, not harder

but you have totally misunderstood the discussion and seen the word chorus and seen it as a structural device when in fact it was about the effect all along - still got some learning to do I think - I am 3 times your age and don't make silly mistakes like the one you thought you'd found

Applying a "chorus" does not just make it a suitable for the chorus. Chorus is just an effect as a phaser is, delay is, distortion etc. If you think the chorus needs more then add and extra background instrument just for the chorus only.

 

[Gloopikat]

So far D-Funkdafield's technique works best for me, that's how I normally do it. And a horrible thought just occurred to me. Don't know how old you are, but if Bandcoach were three times my age it would make him 87 years old. Groovy In any case, I had hoped that someone would listen to the link I provided and tell me how they would go about that specific snare, instead of all of us guessing what the other one means. Once again, thanks for your replies.

EDIT: The Chorus effect has only worked on continuous sounds for me, the presence of unpredictable wobble makes it a useless technique for repeated sounds. At this point i'm just trying to figure out how much my Left and Right sides should cross in frequencies in order to get the sound in that track. When the sides are too different from each other, there's obviously a hole in the middle when they're panned more than 10%.

 

[D-Funkdafied]

@bandcoach Dude, don't be so bigheaded. Even the oldest of all can sometimes learn, stop thinking because your older then that makes you the most knowledgeable. You still have gaps to fill as we all do and always will. Even "Gloopikat" stated that my advice actually worked better than yours.

A chorus effect does not just make a sound good for a chorus. May have when you produced music but it doesn't now.

 

[bandcoach]

wc- @ 17 you have so much to learn and you show your ignorance each and every time your post here

- again the "chorus effect" is not necessarily something that you use in a "chorus section"

- chorus effect is based on the idea of many voices performing the same phrase (chorus as in choir, which simply means a collection of "voices" including a collection of the same instruments)

- bringing with it pitch and timing imperfections that are inherent in any group of sounds

 

[Gloopikat]

Ok, I've now completely lost hope of someone actually listening to the link and offering an opinion on how they'd go about making that snare LOL. Bandcoach, I personally don't find any inconsistencies in what you're saying - you're just describing what chorus does, but if you're indeed so knowledgable, then I'd really like your input on that track. Otherwise we're just talking about the definition of chorus, we all know what it means.

 

[bandcoach]

@gloopikat: you have identified the basic structure of the sound - pitch differences on each side with slight time delay.

This is two sounds being triggered by the same event or just two sounds being triggered separately

- if the former, then you set the onset time of the second sound so that is a little bit later (2ms or so). You might also play with things like pitch modulation so the pitch goes down on one and up on the other

- when dealing with noise this is usually done by opening or closing a filter so that the perceived spectral content gets brighter (pitch up) or darker (pitch down)

- if the latter approach (separate sounds separate triggers), then you use a constant position differential of so many midi ticks (you need to experiment to find the right number based on your target tempo)

- a tick is the smallest division of the quarter note, usually 1/480 or 1/960 depending on your daws settings

- you would recognise a tick as the division of the 16th note in your daw

- as the tempo changes, the time represented by a tick changes accordingly

PPQN (ticks)	Tempo (bpm)	Equivalent time for 1 tick in ms
480	60	2.08
	72	1.74
	84	1.49
	96	1.30
	108	1.16
	120	1.04
960	60	1.04
	72	0.87
	84	0.74
	96	0.65
	108	0.58
	120	0.52

So as the tempo increases you need more ticks to achieve the same delay time and vice versa

instead of focusing on the phase issues that may result if you sum to mono, focus on getting the sound right first then worry about the wider mix issues - sometimes you do not have the possibility (or the luxury) of making a phase free mono mix

 

[Gloopikat]

Thanks for a brilliant reply. A little more than some of us could swallow, but at least you said I got the basic idea right. Now, onto the 'ticks' ; )

 

[Salem Beats]

As you can no doubt hear through either headphones or monitors, both sides differ in both frequency and slightly in time. All I'm looking for is how to achieve that effect without phasing issues in mono. Thanks.

Most of the stereo width, to me, seems to come from an extremely subtle, tight "ambiance" reverb. It's not as "dry" as it seems.

The two sides are fairly noticeably different in pitch, but not so with the timing. It sounds like any timing differences between the two are a side effect of lowering/raising the pitch (resampling) on one side. This has the effect of changing the amplitude and frequency envelopes of the sound, without affecting the sample's start point.

This is Occam's Razor at work, really -- it seems that it's very simple to me.

-Ki
Salem Beats

 

[D-Funkdafied]

This dude always has a big mouth or should I say "hand" since it is all typed.
But, I am glad to be a help to you Gloopika.

 

[Salem Beats]

I took the time to capture the snare sample for you. Like I said in my last post, there isn't really any time-delay, you just think you're hearing that:





I set the ruler at the top to measure in seconds rather than bars/beats. Each numbered ruler segment represents 2 milliseconds, which means that each of the 20 notches in between each numbered segment represents 1/10TH of a millisecond. In the second picture, each "dot" is an individual sample point at 44.1KHz. Even at this resolution, the samples for left and right appear to start at the same time.

To be honest, when you zoom out slightly, you can also see that there doesn't appear to really be a "pitch difference" between the two sides, either. It seems that some of the "stereo difference" could be from running the random-number (white-noise) generator with a different "seed" on each side (two separate devices), generating slightly different results for the left and right. The two sides might be equalized differently, which I suppose with white noise is the equivalent of "changing pitch". I still believe that a very short and very subtle reverb ambiance is creating most of the stereo width you're hearing, though.

Another thing to note is that the left is simply louder than the right. I wasnt sure whether my headphones were going out on me when I noticed this, but the waveform confirms it. It looks like the "average level" is more consistent on the right-side sample than the left, so the right-side sample is probably compressed harder.

On a somewhat related topic, can we start a "Mythbusters" forum section where I can be the moderator?

-Ki
Salem Beats

 

[Gloopikat]

Salem Beats - thank you, needed a second pair of ears, good input. And happy to report I'm much closer to the target after a day's fumbling.

EDIT: as I was typing that message you came out with that second one, will give it a careful look, thank you.

 

[Salem Beats]

Salem Beats - thank you, needed a second pair of ears, good input. And happy to report I'm much closer to the target after a day's fumbling.

EDIT: as I was typing that message you came out with that second one, will give it a careful look, thank you.

Be sure to hit refresh, I do a lot of editing for detail and clarification after-the-fact.

-Ki
Salem Beats

 

[Gloopikat]

Ooh, nice! I'm indebted to you for capturing and analysing this. Yes, if there is a mythbusters section, you have my vote.

Yes, there really isn't any "pitch" to speak of in noise. So achieving that fluffy snare is really a chance thing, but am very close. Reason's Thor is a brilliant device.