Who incorporates music theory?

bobaphat said:
Learning stuff about music theory can never do you harm IF:
1 You never forget that music is not something like science at all, so dont expect clear cut answers, and dont act like there are
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I find it intersting to see peoples' perception of science as cold hard fact when it's anything but. Keep in mind that science just like music is theory. Newtonian Physics for instance is a collection of formulae that does a good job explaining many aspects of everyday kinetics and gravity, just like music theory is a collection of formulae that explain what notes sound good together. However, the laws of Newtonian Physics break down when objects start approaching the speed of light, so the Theory of Relativity was created by Einstein to explain everyday kinetics as well as kinetics at the speed of light. My point of this story being that even science is not clear cut. It's laws and forumulas are constantly being ammended as new phenomena are discovered. If you ask me, music is by far more clear cut than science. The rules of music theory haven't changed in centuries (excluding jazz theory). Science is constantly changing. What is taken as fact today is laughed off as primative thought tomorrow. Music and science are almost identical in their nature. In music, you have a set of chords and notes to work with, that you must arrange into progressions and melodies respectively to make a song. In Science, your data consists of numbers that you must arrange in a certain way to make an explanation that makes sense, much like a song. As a musician and a working analytical biochemist, I can attest that the process of science is EXACTLY like the process of music. One just seems more creative than another because it's called an art, but science takes just as much creativity. You have to be creative when you design experiments so that you get the data that you're after. Science in my opinion is just as much of an art as music. The funny thing is, that most scientists I know have some sort of a creative hobby. For many scientists the thrill is in creating or discovering something. This is why most of them have creative outlets outside of work.
 
My take is this:

I know my theory so well and thoroughly it doesn't impede my creative process. I've been studying it for 15 years. I'm not trying to brag, but I couldn't imagine knowing what part of harmony any given not is in a song at any given point in the progression. I can see how you could get bogged down with it if you have to think hard to apply the theory, but if you have it memorized well enough, it doesn't slow you down at all, and lets you find the melody you're looking for faster, along with the progression, harmonies, and bassline.

But don't get me wrong. I'm just trying explain what works for me. And there are still people who know the theory ten times better than me.
 
Theroy

I understand where you are coming from..I've studied too for years. It's not that I don't understand what I'm doing. There's a difference in having a natural talent and a "learned" talent. It all came natural to me. My education invades my creative space. In which one is formal and the other is informal. Systemmatic vs. dogmatic. I strive for the emotion in my music. That comes form the heart. In turn the text book might say I can't express a phrase that way. So therefore, I put down what's in my gut and set up style, arrangement, and movement according to text book.

Check me out.
www.geocities.com/singlewone/index.html
 
even at that when u learn even more theory. that book that says you can't do that is actually wrong. there is an explanation for every circumstance in theory.
 
Al_Sween said:
even at that when u learn even more theory. that book that says you can't do that is actually wrong. there is an explanation for every circumstance in theory.
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This is correct. Even if your method for creating emotional music "comes from the heart" and doesn't incorporate theory, theory still explains why it sounds emotional. And the same melody could have been reached using a very calculated and mathematical technique also. But you should do whatever works best for you, so I'm not saying anyone is doing anything the wrong way.

My point is just that if you don't use theory, that doesn't somehow make you more talented or gifted than someone who uses a knowledge of theory extensively.
 
Music? Theory?

Of Course, the MIND is infinite. Who can calculate that.
There's no point to prove that one method is better than the other.
 
Re: Music? Theory?

SingleWOne said:
Of Course, the MIND is infinite. Who can calculate that.
There's no point to prove that one method is better than the other.
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Yes, that is what I'm trying to say. You can't say one way is better than the other because each person is different. I'm not saying one way is better. I'm just saying that there is no way that's best for everyone.
 
The statement that learning music theory somehow restricts you as an artist is the most ridiculous thing i have heard in a long while. The way I got in to music as a guitarist was through hearing my dads Steve Vai CD! I started playing and loved to do 12 hour a day practise sessions. People would try to discourage me sayin it would make me sound mechanical. They turned out to be wrong.
I also did "sensitivity sessions" where I would sit and just played one note with or with vibrato and just absorb it and feel it. Now I can play anything I come across and play i think quite tastefully!

My point is knowledge is power. If you know your stuff you know when not to use it. but if you dont know it and find yourself needing it.
Anything less than complete techinique/knowledge of theory can be a real hindrance.

Ikemurda said:

True. Perfect pitch is a rarity. It can't be taught.
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Wrong. it can actually be taught. Everybody has it. it is how babies learn how to talk. It just diminishes through lack of use but can be re-kindled. There have been academic studies proving this.

Peace Out
 
trizzy said:

I also did "sensitivity sessions" where I would sit and just played one note with or with vibrato and just absorb it and feel it. Now I can play anything I come across and play i think quite tastefully!

My point is knowledge is power. If you know your stuff you know when not to use it. but if you dont know it and find yourself needing it.
Anything less than complete techinique/knowledge of theory can be a real hindrance.
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Not martian love secrets!! ;) hehe

i agree with you on this, that you know when not to use it.
 
MUUUUSAAAC

I learned from the start playing keyboard, guitar, and bass just by listen and feeling....Years later I put down MY own ideas to learn the correct way. compositions classes and the whole 9.
I can write any composition from Chamber music to Show tunes and anything in between. But for ME to execute personal expreesions thinking inside the box for ME dose take away some movement. That's Why I had to learn to balance the two.
(I'm quite literal when it comes to text book knowledge)
I would lay down the foundation than add expression or vice versa. Kinda like Linoel Richie....The dude is a genuis but the lessons he took didn't stick. So he writes music the way he know how. Therory for me just is a reference tool
 
if ur compositions sound good together then that's all u "need". u need theory if u want to know WHY it sounds good together and to come up with a Babyface-like template for making hits. just let it come from ur soul.
 
it's hard to translate ur ideas or even compositions to someone if u don't know a little of theory.

for example if a song/beat or whatever is to be performed live w/o a track then someone would have to write the music out for the people to play.

There is no question that you do not have to know theory to perform or even create music. but it is proven to make it easier.

I say that cause I could easily compose a beat with out being able to hear at this point.
 
I guess my take on the situation is that learning music theory opened up my eyes (soul, whatever) to be able to express myself further by broadening my thought process when it came to music composition. Example: before theory, I never would have thought to use a diminished 7th chord before another chord to highlight a particular feel or emotive element that worked harmonically. Coloring elements like Neopolitan chords and what have you would have never found their way into my music because I would never have thought to use a particular chord in a particular situation such as that.

To each their own. This is a conversation that will never come to a finite conclusion, but I guess that's the point. :cheers:
 
Al_Sween said:
it's hard to translate ur ideas or even compositions to someone if u don't know a little of theory.

for example if a song/beat or whatever is to be performed live w/o a track then someone would have to write the music out for the people to play.

There is no question that you do not have to know theory to perform or even create music. but it is proven to make it easier.

I say that cause I could easily compose a beat with out being able to hear at this point.
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I somewhat disagree. In this day and age with all the technology its lot easier to make music without knowing the science behind them. Me for for example, im always coming up with guitar riffs in my head and humming them. I can come up with some pretty good riffs and Ive never learned how to play guitar. Then all i do is sing the notes into my computer, use a wav-midi converter, and volia! Ive got my riff in midi form and I can use any synthetic instrument I want to play it. Rythem and melody are natural to us especially if youve been listening to music your whole life. You dont really need to learn it. That being said I plan to learn more theory as I experiment, but i like the freedom of not really knowing what im doing ;)
 
Righ Righ!

Na That's waht tha F**K I'm talking 'bout!
Theory definately is knowledge and the same time music is an expression I got something to say (musically) and sometimes I don't want rules hindering me.
(but in theory that becomes a new rule )

;)



:victory:
 
[][][][]ROK[][][][] said:


I somewhat disagree. In this day and age with all the technology its lot easier to make music without knowing the science behind them. Me for for example, im always coming up with guitar riffs in my head and humming them. I can come up with some pretty good riffs and Ive never learned how to play guitar. Then all i do is sing the notes into my computer, use a wav-midi converter, and volia! Ive got my riff in midi form and I can use any synthetic instrument I want to play it. Rythem and melody are natural to us especially if youve been listening to music your whole life. You dont really need to learn it. That being said I plan to learn more theory as I experiment, but i like the freedom of not really knowing what im doing ;)
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This is hilarious. By your way of composition, you're limited to simple melody without harmony. I suppose you could add the harmony after you hummed it, but that would require knowing music theory. You also can't use chords in your music, unless you can find a way to hum two different notes at once, and then have your wav-midi thing differentiate it. Your method will be passable for a genre as simple as hip hop, but anything else and you might as well be playing the piano with one finger. Also knowledge of an instrument gives you insight into creating complex melody and harmony for that particular instrument which can help add depth to your production. Playing an instrument is not difficult. Anyone can do it. It just takes time, and people now a days want to run before they can walk. If you want to make spectacular music, do yourself a favor and learn piano, at very minimum guitar. You will naturally learn theory when you learn an instrument, and it will help you tremendously.

I am absolutely appalled that people think theory can hinder them, as well as the lazyness of people on this board to learn theory or an instrument. It's not hard people. just get off your lazy ass and practice. Thats all it takes. To think music theory can hinder you is to not really understand what theory is. Uggghhhh!!!
 
yah thanks. but i never said that was the only way i used, its just one technique lol. My mind is way open now to any kind of sound because ive never been told what is supposed to go togather. Becasue of this Ive come up with some very different ideas about compostion. Im not saying it wouldnt be nice to know some musical theory, im actually learing keyboards and guitars now, but its also cool to explore sound for yourself first, because you dont really know whats going to happen and you can end up going on creative tangents without knowing waht your doing. Then you can come up with some really original, spontaneous stuff. The good thing about working from nothing is there are unlimited possibilites. Origianlity of course can be sprung from a rigid set of parameters as well, its just that the paths to take may already seemed mapped out so it probably takes extra effort to bypass the rules. I like to learn along the way.
 
Now that's what I call cynical minded when someone counts knowledge as the only means to be creative. It's hard for them to comprehend this thing called "natural ability". I have an uncle who is a savant that can play or write anything you want. According to these people he might as well be a scientific wonder. People who lack ability and talent must rely on practice because they obviously can't perform the task without being taught. You can learn all you want but if you can't hear or understand what you are doing why do it.....To me that makes your product artificial. Like eating a steak in the Matrix.
All in all theory is useful no denying that. My EDUCATION has unlocked a lot of things for me to explore with my compositons. I give credit to symphonic, chamber, blues, showtunes, and jazz.
 
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I'm self taugh, I don't know producers around here, no musical classes or stuff.
A music professor told me on my childhood that I will never be able to have success on music.

Music is willing man. If you like music, and want to make it, and you do it, you'll be a musician. No matters how long U can go, but how much you like to walk the way.

only death can stop you, when U love music.
 
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