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Thread: Transposing vs Modulation?

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    AG Beats is offline Registered User
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    Now when youre saying E7 you mean the dominant 7 of the e chord right? So E major with a flat 7? Or would that be written as E7 and you just mean add a 7th to e major?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bandcoach View Post
    NO!!!!!!

    if we are modulating to Am then we need to hear an E major chord at some point resolving to the A minor chord.

    Im curious... If the keys of C and A minor are relative keys and contain the exact same notes and chords, but in a different sequence, Why would you need a chord outside of both keys (E7) to point towards the new relative? I've always modulated to relative major/minor without any borrowed notes/chords..

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    Quote Originally Posted by AG Beats View Post
    Now when you're saying E7 you mean the dominant 7 of the e chord right? So E major with a flat 7? Or would that be written as E7 and you just mean add a 7th to e major?
    it's written E7 and interpreted relative to A harmonic minor as 5-7-2-4:

    A B C D E F G# A
    1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7 1

    which is E-G#-B-D.

    Which is a dominant 7th chord i.e. a major chord plus a minor 7th....

    ---------- Post added at 02:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by JGrisly View Post
    Im curious... If the keys of C and A minor are relative keys and contain the exact same notes and chords, but in a different sequence, Why would you need a chord outside of both keys (E7) to point towards the new relative? I've always modulated to relative major/minor without any borrowed notes/chords..
    Whilst A minor is the relative minor of C major, it has a different scale structure to accommodate it's harmonic language, most specifically that it has a major chord built above the 5th degree of the scale. We also have natural and melodic versions of the relative minor scale, and this is where most of the confusion about using the minor comes from: which minor do you mean is the most common question asked or why is that your minor doesn't sound anything like my minor..

    Major C D E F G A B C
    Rel Nat Minor A B C D E F G A
    Rel Harm Minor A B C D E F G# A
    Rel Mel Minor Asc A B C D E F# G# A

    You use the harmonic minor for creating chord progressions or for melodic work if you are into Klezmer.

    You use the melodic minor going up (the natural minor going down) for creating melodies. You can use it for creating chords if you are looking for a more jazz feel to your minor tune.

    You use the natural minor for melodies mostly, but you can also use it to make chords as well.

    The problem with asking about modulation to the minor is that you are almost certainly asking about how do I use the harmonic minor - this is because the literature on modulating to the minor is based within using the harmonic minor
    Last edited by bandcoach; 01-18-2013 at 07:26 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bandcoach View Post



    ---------- Post added at 02:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:25 PM ----------



    Whilst A minor is the relative minor of C major, it has a different scale structure to accommodate it's harmonic language, most specifically that it has a major chord built above the 5th degree of the scale.
    Wait, isn't the chord built off the 5th degree of A natural minor, E minor?
    Quote Originally Posted by bandcoach View Post
    The problem with asking about modulation to the minor is that you are almost certainly asking about how do I use the harmonic minor
    Not what Im asking at all. I am quite familiar with harmonic minor (I have an obsession with yngwie malmsteen lol) and not part of my question.
    Maybe my fault for not explaining it better.
    So are you suggesting that in order to modulate from C major to A natural minor "properly", You must use the raised 7th of harmonic minor (G#, the difference between the 5th degree building a major or minor chord) to point to A natural minor? Or are you saying that its just more effective that way?
    None of this in reference to classical music, but rather, contemporary (though I do understand the origination)..

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    we are at odds here: modulation to the minor is explicitly to
    • the harmonic minor for chordal purposes;
    • any of the three forms for melodic purposes.


    When moving to the natural minor you are applying principles of modal harmony which are very different and outside the scope of the original question.

    happy to discuss this at a later date....
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    Quote Originally Posted by bandcoach View Post
    When moving to the natural minor you are applying principles of modal harmony which are very different and outside the scope of the original question.
    Your response makes perfect sense now
    Though, as I have learned (guitar player) would still be classified as modulation.
    'Preciate your time and effort in helping the theory inquisitives...

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    Quote Originally Posted by bandcoach View Post
    in terms of transposition there is no place for secondary dominants unless they already exist in the original key; i.e.they aren't used to facilitate a transposition



    The normal route is via the V7 of the new key, which hopefully exists as a chord in the existing key with little modification needed. This is true of my 3rd example where we use C7 as the penultimate chord, requiring only that we flatten the B to create the dominant 7th chord. V7 followed by chord I or chord IV contains so much strong information about the new key (1-3-5-7-2-4 or -5-7-2-4-6-1) that we can be confident the new key is established.



    That is just me being ultra rigid in presenting all possible versions of the V-I cadence using both major and minor chords. The essence is that we need to hear V7 - I or V7 - i to feel confident about the modulation being successfully established.



    Generally your pivot chord ends up being either the new I or new IV. E.G. modulating from C to G, you would move something like C-F-C-G-D-G and the function is
    C: I-IV-I-V-V-of-V-V
    C: I-IV-I G: I-II-I

    The pivot is the G chord between the C and D chords so it is acting as both chord V in the old key and chord I in the new key.



    So I am going to write out the actual chords so that we can see what is happening:

    12 34 1234 12 34 1234 12 34 1234 12 34 12 34 12 34 1234 12 34 1234 12 34 1234 12 34 1234
    Am G F Am G F Am G F Am G F E7 F E Dm F E Dm F E Dm F E Dm
    C: vi V IV vi V IV vi V IV vi V IV a: V7 bVI V iv bVI V iv bVI V iv bVI V iv

    Which leads us to conclude that both F and E are pivot chords as the F exists in both progressions and the E7 is used to prepare the shift to the new key. It is interesting to note that in both examples there is no appearance of chord I|i.

    This might suggest that the original progression is actually in Am and the modulation has been to Dm via a non key chord E7
    Bandcoach thanks again,

    whith regards to:
    Which leads us to conclude that both F and E are pivot chords as the F exists in both progressions and the E7 is used to prepare the shift to the new key. It is interesting to note that in both examples there is no appearance of chord I|i.

    This might suggest that the original progression is actually in Am and the modulation has been to Dm via a non key chord E7."

    What you're saying is that it's strange that that I don't have the I or i chord present.
    A lot of times I bang out chords in a sequence that sounds cool to me, but not necessarily I guess "the formal" progression where you're trying to resolve to the 1 chord.

    I guess the V7 to the I/i chord is the strongest form of resolution and best way to make the transition to the new key?


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    V7-I and vice versa I-V7 are the two strongest movements within diatonic music - they are the axis around which everything else revolves. I was skim reading a book on Marching band arranging last night (always reading, always learning, always reaffirming past learning) and they emphasised that this (V7-I and vice versa I-V7) is at the crux of any and all harmonic work and particularly of any modulation attempts.

    What matters in the end is that progression works and there is some functional logic behind it - if I|i appears great, but the mere hinting at of I|i with the presence of V|V7 is enough to carry the progression

    If the above progressions were truly in Am and Dm then the first is a modal progression (Aeolian) and the second would also be a modal progression, 4th mode of the harmonic minor of A

    It is probably safer to leave themas being in C major and A minor respectively, as the functions are then clearly understood. It is even possible to claim the whole thing is in A minor and simply shifts from the modal Aeolian to the harmonic minor half way through.......
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    caycay is offline Registered User
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    lot of good info here, never knew what moding was for really...

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    TDOT is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by bandcoach View Post
    V7-I and vice versa I-V7 are the two strongest movements within diatonic music - they are the axis around which everything else revolves. I was skim reading a book on Marching band arranging last night (always reading, always learning, always reaffirming past learning) and they emphasised that this (V7-I and vice versa I-V7) is at the crux of any and all harmonic work and particularly of any modulation attempts.

    What matters in the end is that progression works and there is some functional logic behind it - if I|i appears great, but the mere hinting at of I|i with the presence of V|V7 is enough to carry the progression

    If the above progressions were truly in Am and Dm then the first is a modal progression (Aeolian) and the second would also be a modal progression, 4th mode of the harmonic minor of A

    It is probably safer to leave themas being in C major and A minor respectively, as the functions are then clearly understood. It is even possible to claim the whole thing is in A minor and simply shifts from the modal Aeolian to the harmonic minor half way through.......
    Alright I've got you on that, wanted to ask you another simple question outside this topic but I'll PM you for that.

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