Taming an uneven kick drum

Gloopikat

New member
Hi everyone, it seems I've hit a brick wall after deciding to return to synthesizing drums. I've got a basic 808-type kick in Massive that no amount of filtering and enveloping can fix: the attack is constantly cycling in intensity every 3 hits. While the boomy part stays consistent in volume audibly, the meter shows a 3dB difference - one I can't fix with either compression or filtering. I wanted to make a copy and completely remove the highs from the initial kick, but even after a steep curve fluctuation is still audible. Would you care to share your techniques for solving that? It's an age-old problem I had years ago in Thor. Thanks!
 
check to see if you have a very slow lfo driving the envelope/filter as well

then some audio/patch settings would go a long way to allowing us to help you
 
Envelope_4_Amp_.jpgEnvelope_1.jpgThank you, bandcoach. No LFO to speak of, just two envelopes - one affecting the wave position, the other the amplitude. I'm attaching both screens. There is also some wild pitch modulation over in the wave section, but that's about it. I've had this problem before with synthesized kicks...
 
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Meanwhile I corrected another problem I thought was causing the issue, and it sorted the levels out, but not the click at the beginning, which continues to subtly drop in and out every 5 or 6 beats... It seems the problem is more pronounced in the lower frequencies, so right now it's bearable in the 80Hz range, but becomes really pronounced an octave lower.
 
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View attachment 43273View attachment 43272Thank you, bandcoach. No LFO to speak of, just two envelopes - one affecting the wave position, the other the amplitude. I'm attaching both screens. There is also some wild pitch modulation over in the wave section, but that's about it. I've had this problem before with synthesized kicks...

based on what you have written so far it would seem that there is something cyclic that is causing a zero crossing error

have to say that the pics do not show any pitch modulation going on at all, all I see is a shift between Env 1 and Env 4 and not very much that that would cause the issue you are describing

did not get to see FX2

Audio will be more informative now
 
Actually, there is pitch modulation by several octaves coming from the Env 1. But never mind, because taking that off doesn't solve the issue in any case. I'm attaching a kick loop. As for FX2, nothing on there. I have compression and eq, as well as mild saturation happening. Taking all of that off also leaves me with the same problem, just quieter.

Ok, I hope you're able to view the private link. If not, I'll make it public. Thank you! https://soundcloud.com/daniel-tchalian/kick-1
 
I use a few DAWs - this particular project is in Maschine, but I've had the same issue in Reason's Thor. You're right about sampling, it's actually my go-to tactic, but I was compelled to find out where I was going wrong with making a steady percussion sound in a synth, it's been bugging me. This could apply to a greater extent to sounds you wish to tweak continuously - like increasing the release on a snare, in which case you want to get it sounding steady in a synth, I believe.
 
Actually, there is pitch modulation by several octaves coming from the Env 1. But never mind, because taking that off doesn't solve the issue in any case. I'm attaching a kick loop. As for FX2, nothing on there. I have compression and eq, as well as mild saturation happening. Taking all of that off also leaves me with the same problem, just quieter.

Ok, I hope you're able to view the private link. If not, I'll make it public. Thank you! https://soundcloud.com/daniel-tchalian/kick-1

you may have to make this public I got the can't find this error without being signed in and then also after I signed in
 
a limiter won't fix cyclic clicks in the attack - there is some form of very low frequency mod on the sound that comes along every 6th or 7th beat
 
Just thought I'd mention that I don't get those clicks you talk about when I replicate your patch (the parts that I can see). So perhaps there's another issue.
 
Thank you all for your replies and apologies for the delay. Bandcoach is right - a limiter has never fixed the slow phasing. I've looked at 4 bars of this in Audacity and it does appear visually as a slow, time-synched LFO. Here is the public link: https://soundcloud.com/daniel-tchalian/kick-1 And thank you Wallengaard for taking the time as well.

In any case, may I ask a follow-on question? I'm working right now with layered pre-produced kicks all pretty much 0db from the outset. They obviously do not need any kind of limiting or excitement or warmth added, but please tell me this: if they're already at 0db, do I have to bring them down in volume so as to leave headroom for my other (synthesized) elements when I eventually do add some limiting and warmth to the master bus later on? My instincts tell me to bring it down to -3db or so. However, there is also this to consider: say I reduce the kick gain to leave headroom for other things in the totality of the mix, would I need to take care that whatever limiting/warming I add on the master bus is not going to affect the kick? These samples are good enough on their own and I really know when not to touch something. Thank you!
 
0dbfs? in which case I would bring them back to at least -12dbfs (i.e. k-12 in the k-metering systems)

going to listen to the track shortly (just gone 7 am here)
 
so I listened and I can hear the problem

when I open it in audacity and inspect the waveform I can see the problem: your kick waveform is not starting from the same place in the oscillator cycle each time it is triggered, giving you an upward rising transient sometimes and a downward transient at other times - i.e they all start at 0 amplitude but some rise above whilst others fall below the 0 amplitude line and even the duration of the initial transient changes as time moves on

to eliminate this problem (which is simply wavetable drift and hard to synch to tempo if at all possible to do so), you need to set Restart Via Gate Button on in each of the oscillators to ensure that the oscillators restart from the same place in the wavetables each time you trigger a kick

some synthesis tutorials call this key sync, others hard sync
 
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Well explained, thank you. I could hear all you described, but knowing what to attribute it to is a different thing entirely, should read more...

As for the kick - assuming that it's the loudest element in the track, by bringing it to -12db before any master bus warming/maximization, does that mean all other elements should be proportionately below that? So where does the -3db rule fit in, does it apply only before sending off a track for mastering after you've done everything else on the master bus? Cheers.
 
0dbfs is nominally equivalent to a high spl, set by how you are calibrating your meters to spl: e.g.

k-20 sets 0dbfs = 103dbspl and therefore -20dbfs = 83dbspl =0dbRMS, which gives you headroom equivalent to 100 times as loud
k-14 sets 0dbfs = 97dbspl and therefore -14dbfs = 83dbspl =0dbRMS, which gives you headroom equivalent to 25.1 times as loud
k-12 sets 0dbfs = 95dbspl and therefore -12dbfs = 83dbspl =0dbRMS, which gives you headroom equivalent to 15.8 times as loud

i.e. most youtube tutorials have it wrong because they are working backwards from 0dbfs instead of working towards 0dbfs

when mixing we should be focused on achieving 0dbrms not 0dbfs, little bit above is fine but pushing into the single digit dbfs range is only causing problems when mixing

consider this from another perspective: summing signals (which is what mixing is) will always result in a higher signal never a smaller one.

In any k- metering system

If you start at -3dbfs and another also at -3dbfs the result is 0.01dbfs i.e. you are already clipping without getting past two signals

Start at -12dbfs and add another also at -12dbfs and you get -8.99dbfs;
add another -12dbfs signal to those two and you get a sum of -7.23;
yet another = -5.98;
another gives us -5.01;
another, -4.22,
another, -3.55;,
another, -2.97,
another -2.46;
another, -2.00;
another -1.59;
another, -1.21;
another, -0.86;
another, -0.54;
another, -0.24;
another, 0.04dbfs and we are again clipping: 15 tracks without clipping (-0.24dbfs), 16th track pushes us into clipping.

Start at -14dbfs and do the summing it takes 26 tracks before we exceed 0dbfs at 0.15dbfs, 25 tracks without clipping and a headroom of

Start at -20dbfs and do the summing: it takes 101 tracks before we exceed 0dbfs at 0.04dbfs, 100 tracks at -20dbfs or less sums to 0.00dbfs

(The math to do this summing is

dbcombinedSignal = 10x log10(10[sup](dbsignal1)/10)[/sup]+10[sup](dbsignal2)/10[/sup]).

For each new track add the previous result to the current track peak to get the new summed value of peaks.)

now let's go back to the headroom figures I gave above for the various k-metering systems:

k-12 has a headroom of 15.8 times as much (12db)
k-14 has a headroom of 25.1 times as much (14db)
k-20 has a headroom of 100 times as much (20db)

See anything striking about those headroom figures? that's right it is equivalent to the number of tracks with that peak value that can be summed before we exceed 0dbfs

Whilst we can fudge the figures by dropping the master buss fader (a common enough practice in analogue days), it doesn't change the final outcome.

Our approach to average levels per track dictates exactly how many tracks we can have in a mix before it begins to clip the output
 
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Very comprehensive, thank you, the arithmetics of what you're saying is compelling. However, for practical purposes, I find that at least 50% more than those levels allows to really hear what you're doing, not to mention allowing compression to do its work (unless you have ridiculously low thresholds on everything to get the desired effect). Plus you really need to drive the monitors to get the desired volume for accurate mixing. The mixing-as-summing argument you make is also pure science, but does a mastering engineer really need oodles of headroom when they know right off the bat that it's either a well-produced track or not? I think 3-5db pre-mastering is something that provides best results, preferred that one knows how to work with bass. Moreover, if all the other sounds were mixed proportionally to the kick at -12db, they would be so low you'd need to drive 8" monitors to the max just to hear them, I found. And finally, if your sounds are not well produced (not to mention well mixed), having 12 more Db to play with does what exactly...
 
you miss the point: each track at -12dbfs in a 15 track mix leaves you approximately 0.24db headroom overall

if we raise our individual track levels to say -6dbfs then we will reach our track limit by the 4th track (we will be trying to generate a signal of 0.02 dbfs at that point)

the summing is the reality, whether we like it or not - it is why so many tracks sound like crud because the mix is clipped before a master buss limiter is applied to them - applying the limiter won't do much if you are already exceeding the full capability of the daw

as far as your monitors are concerned you should be trying to run them so that they produce 83dbspl @ 1m in your listening/mix space; they should also be being run from a control room output on your interface not the master buss outputs (you can independently set the control room level without it affecting the mix, meaning that you achieve your desired mix without having to push the master fader to hear what is going on)
 
Thank you. The wishful thinking on my part is because I didn't get how this argument works when the kick/bass are at a completely different frequency (and level) to the rest of the tracks, which become geometrically quieter towards the kHz area anyway. Why do analyzers tell us we're still in the green if we're actually breaking the loudness limit? Unless you suggest I change the metering system on the analyzer to view a different side of the story?

p.s.
Btw, I set the kick at -12dB, the snares/hats proportionally at about -18/20dB and so on with other elements, and must say it does sound reassuring when the relationships are left intact. Just boosting the external levels (never the master bus outputs).
 
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