Songwriting, Theory and Instruments

C

CodyFrumtript

Music Junky at Large
Whats up =D I'm a newbie. Anywho,

So the biggest thing i need help with right now, and the primary reason i came to this forum is because of a MAJOR sticking point i'm having in my songwriting and theory.

I played guitar for about 5 years, but never took any theory or lessons. In a way, this was awesome because i got really good at teaching myself music, but now its comming back to kick me in the butt.


Now that i'm taking music very seriously, i have a problem.

Everytime i go to write a song, i have limited knowledge on constructing bass lines, what melodies are interesting over the top of them and the biggest thing: Switching up the progression for the chorus.

Also a HUGE problem with my guitar playing is that i only know basic power chords and punk progressions. I'm at a loss for knowing where to go from hear. My latest aproach was to learn a new song on guitar every day, but that doesn't actually help me with this problem.

Also when i start to look stuff up it comes up like this:

"Hi! I'm a random music teacher, and i'm going to teach you about scales! The first ones, are major and minor...."

which seems to be a little elementary for me. What i'm looking for is some intermediate music theory. I do very OK when it comes to writing right now, but i'm starting to realize i need technical knowledge in order to acomplish what i need to. I need to learn about fifths and shiz i think. Currently i'll write an awesome progression or make a dank loop in reason, but have no idea how to switch it up into a chorus, or keep the loop interesting through the verses. Also i have problems finding the right melody, the ones i come up with first are always plain and predictable and the result is me sitting there for an hour or to trying to find the right note to resolve to, or a good progression to switch to... I need a better more practical knowledge on this stuff, because its getting embarassing when i'm trying to write a song with someone, and i need to "take a break til tomorrow", but honestly i just don't want to make them sit there for like an hour while i pick apart what needs to happen, get frustrated and smoke a pack of cigarettes before eventually retiring to the basement to play halo.

So my question is, where do i go? What do i look up, what tutorials should i use, what books should i read? I learn really well by seeing practical knowledge laid out in words or theory that i can then practice and apply.

So, i'm looking to learn to play guitar better, and also learn theory of song structures, melody, harmony chord progressions and what not. To some of you this may seem basic and retarded, but honestly i'm looking for something that is half way between basic and advanced. Any ideas or help i can get from anyone would be great. Its hard for me to iterate where i'm at, and what i need... because if i knew, then i probably wouldn't be asking for help.
 
IMO and this is just my opinion- figure out a way to analyze and study the music.

Playing songs isn't really gonna help unless you actually sit there and think about what you're playing.

You can train a monkey to sit there and go through the motions of playing an instrument with enough practice, that's really only part of the equation.

For me what's really helping right now is I'm taking 2 music appreciation classes and they break down the songs into forms and schemes such as AABA or AABBCC etc.

It's helping me because it shows how to break down songs very detailed and in terms of different instruments.

I'll just list the Jazz one because the other is shit in comparison: Jazz Styles 10th Edition.

I'm sure you can find it a hell of a lot cheaper than I paid through school my book has 2 CD's with it though, but you can just listen to all the songs on youtube TBH.

Other things I recommend are actually transcribing music which will help you visualize the patterns and curves of the notes, and drawing out song arrangements as blocks or a graph.
 
CodyFrumtript said:
So, i'm looking to learn to play guitar better, and also learn theory of song structures, melody, harmony chord progressions and what not. To some of you this may seem basic and retarded, but honestly i'm looking for something that is half way between basic and advanced. Any ideas or help i can get from anyone would be great. Its hard for me to iterate where i'm at, and what i need... because if i knew, then i probably wouldn't be asking for help.
Click to expand...

Several ideas jump to mind.

Analysis is key, as 3ternal has said. But if you lack the knowledge to do that you are still stuck wondering what to do.

So, you lay out quite nicely in your last paragraph: you want guidance on:
  • learn to play guitar better,
  • learn theory of song structures,
  • melody,
  • harmony chord progressions
  • what not.
.

learn to play guitar better,
Learning to play the guitar better on-line is tricky; it can be done but it is still tricky because some of the fundamental feedback things a face-to-face teacher can do aren't possible via the internet.

So find a local guitar teacher if you can.

Regardless, look up marc sabatellas site, http://www.outsideshore.com/school/music/

learn theory of song structures,
I have a short lesson on song structures over the past century
http://bandcoach.org/beginningTheory/03/

melody,

I do have something ready to rollout on this, but give me a little time to make it web friendly (it is a word document now and does not contain any audio examples as yet).


harmony chord progressions

More of a collection of chord progressions in both the major and the minor using roman numeral notation, still working on converting them every key.

major http://www.bandcoach.org/chordProgsMaj.html

minor http://www.bandcoach.org/chordProgsMin.html

I also have a couple of lessons covering harmonising existing melodies using simple and exotic approaches. I'll let you know when these are ready

what not.
Bass lines. I wrote a book in 2009 covering bass lines for major and minor chords based on every key note. It was designed for beginning players who struggled with the idea of what to use when improvising a bass line from a chord progression. So it is strongly founded in simple yet effective 1 bar patterns. There are about 50 per key note and chord type.

Happy to send you a copy of the pdf - just pm me.
 
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The PDF would be great.... and that all looks like some awesome advice! i'll have to sift through it in the morning, its kindof late and i'm about to crash.


The path of direction i went on tonight: I ended up finding a website http:/ /mugglinw . ipower.com /chordmaps /part3. htm and it maps out the same things... although its not making quite as much sense as i would like it to. The problem is, its in reference to piano, which i know nothing about (past using it to program my songs in reason). The good thing is, i've been wanting to learn how to play the piano better anyways. So i also torrented a self teaching piano program called "Learn and Master Piano" that has tracks to play to, and video lessons. Pretty decent. I worked on that for about an hour and a half, but then realized that i had strayed away from my goal haha! But yeah, as far as guitar lessons... i'm running on broke right now, although i have known its going to be a necessity for a while now. I guess someone saying it to me kindof put me back in check on that one.


So about analyzing songs... Maybe thats a good idea. I remember when i first started writing music, back when i was like 14, i would do that. I guess its time to break out a notebook and do it again, but this time i can probably go into A LOT more detail, as i can actually recreate and understand what most of the sounds and instruments are.

Honestly, songwriting is what i love =D I want to see my name all over BMI next to Sam Hollander haha!

I think why this task of understanding structure has been so difficult for me, is that in the case of most musicians, i do alright... So its hard to raise the bar when i'm sitting comfortably. Kind of how its hard to go find a higher paying job that can buy you a boat when you are currently doing ok and getting the rent in on time. Also, because i have no clue about the technical side of music. I've done EVERYTHING by ear my entire life. i'll be jamming with someone and they'll say "yo. What key are you playing in?" and i'll look at the guitar, then look up and say "The key of the fifth fret on the second string!"


P.S. Is there anyway to get away with posting links on here?

---------- Post added at 05:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:53 AM ----------

By the way, i like sharing what i discover on personal journeys like this haha!

Tomorrow afternoon/morning i'm going to do something. I'm going to take 10 Random Songs of a play list of top 100 on my ipod, and diagram them as best i can... then post my findings and thoughts.
 
Ah, yes the Mugglin PDF/ Chordmaps for Songwriting. Very good, loosely based on a larger exploration done by Arnold Schoenberg, great composer and theorist.

Sorry about the marc sabatella link, meant to post it as a viewable link as well. here it is: http://www.outsideshore.com/school/music/

To show links you can use the vBulletin bbcode tag pair [noparse] [/noparse] around the url.

Learning keys and stuff is tough to begin with but gets easier over time; I've been playing guitar since 1977, it took a few years to get my head around it, but now it is second nature, I don't even stop to think, I just blurt the chords out as I am playing/teaching/demonstrating for my students.

Raising the bar is tougher still when you have plateaued - which is probably where you are at right now. Some teachers view the plateau as a danger for their students, others view it as an opportunity to consolidate learning to date. Either way the plateau needs to occupy as little time as possible - I have been through 3 two year plateaus in playing career: it is very discouraging at many different levels. In each case, I had to find some new form/style of playing to begin advancing again. having students also helps to avoid long periods of plateauing as they will almost always push you to learn new things: I learnt to play Satriani's Midnight (a double-tapping masterwork) because I had several students who wanted to learn in 1989/90.

Finding ways to push yourself through is the trick. You seem to have set your mind on doing just that, good for you.
 
the internet is your best friend, use it. you can research different articles and tutorials on the net... from there you can build up your knowledge on music.
 
CodyFrumtript said:
Whats up =D I'm a newbie. Anywho,

So the biggest thing i need help with right now, and the primary reason i came to this forum is because of a MAJOR sticking point i'm having in my songwriting and theory.

I played guitar for about 5 years, but never took any theory or lessons. In a way, this was awesome because i got really good at teaching myself music, but now its comming back to kick me in the butt.


Now that i'm taking music very seriously, i have a problem.

Everytime i go to write a song, i have limited knowledge on constructing bass lines, what melodies are interesting over the top of them and the biggest thing: Switching up the progression for the chorus.

Also a HUGE problem with my guitar playing is that i only know basic power chords and punk progressions. I'm at a loss for knowing where to go from hear. My latest aproach was to learn a new song on guitar every day, but that doesn't actually help me with this problem.

Also when i start to look stuff up it comes up like this:

"Hi! I'm a random music teacher, and i'm going to teach you about scales! The first ones, are major and minor...."

which seems to be a little elementary for me. What i'm looking for is some intermediate music theory. I do very OK when it comes to writing right now, but i'm starting to realize i need technical knowledge in order to acomplish what i need to. I need to learn about fifths and shiz i think. Currently i'll write an awesome progression or make a dank loop in reason, but have no idea how to switch it up into a chorus, or keep the loop interesting through the verses. Also i have problems finding the right melody, the ones i come up with first are always plain and predictable and the result is me sitting there for an hour or to trying to find the right note to resolve to, or a good progression to switch to... I need a better more practical knowledge on this stuff, because its getting embarassing when i'm trying to write a song with someone, and i need to "take a break til tomorrow", but honestly i just don't want to make them sit there for like an hour while i pick apart what needs to happen, get frustrated and smoke a pack of cigarettes before eventually retiring to the basement to play halo.

So my question is, where do i go? What do i look up, what tutorials should i use, what books should i read? I learn really well by seeing practical knowledge laid out in words or theory that i can then practice and apply.

So, i'm looking to learn to play guitar better, and also learn theory of song structures, melody, harmony chord progressions and what not. To some of you this may seem basic and retarded, but honestly i'm looking for something that is half way between basic and advanced. Any ideas or help i can get from anyone would be great. Its hard for me to iterate where i'm at, and what i need... because if i knew, then i probably wouldn't be asking for help.
Click to expand...

You don't need any theory.

You don't need any books.

What you need is something that none of us can offer.

All of taught music theory is "beginner" music theory. Do you really think there's an "ultimate music formula" out there that somebody knows and teaches? Is somebody going to give you a magic formula for creating melodies? If they did, would music even be interesting anymore?

What you really need is a swift kick in the ass and a paradigm shift at a foundational level below music.

You want a book specifically? Maybe something along the lines of this:



Or maybe something at an even more foundational level.
 
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Salem Beats said:
All of taught music theory is "beginner" music theory. Do you really think there's an "ultimate music formula" out there that somebody knows and teaches? Is somebody going to give you a magic formula for creating melodies? If they did, would music even be interesting anymore?
Click to expand...

I have to dispute that all taught music theory is beginner level. That would be like saying the hyperdimensional mathematics is the same as basic number line problems, which it is not.

There are advanced topics in music theory as there are in any field of endeavour that utilises a set of axioms to develop deeper and deeper insights into the function/development of that field.

There are heuristics (rules of thumb) for creating any aspect of music so that it is pleasing. knowing them gives the possessor of such knowledge a starting point from which to disregard them or to create new heuristics within their own voice.

At any, rate, the need for a good swift kick is not disputed. Who needs it, is.

Why is that when someone asks for guidance or direction, must so many people immediately come out and say you are not a true believer because you do not want to do things the way I did? Why is that these same people belittle any efforts to understand and codify the way music has been created in the past to inform how others might make music in the future?

It seems that music forums for modern music in general are not interested in encouraging questioning into the hows and whys of music creation, but rather push the cult of the blind leading the blind: "I don't know why it works, and you aren't allowed to know why either," seems to be clarion call that rings out whenever someones asks: "what makes this style work the way it does?".

Get a grip and let people learn the way they want to. This is not school and you can't hijack anyones desire to learn any more.
 
bandcoach said:
I have to dispute that all taught music theory is beginner level. That would be like saying the hyperdimensional mathematics is the same as basic number line problems, which it is not.

There are advanced topics in music theory as there are in any field of endeavour that utilises a set of axioms to develop deeper and deeper insights into the function/development of that field.

There are heuristics (rules of thumb) for creating any aspect of music so that it is pleasing. knowing them gives the possessor of such knowledge a starting point from which to disregard them or to create new heuristics within their own voice.

At any, rate, the need for a good swift kick is not disputed. Who needs it, is.

Why is that when someone asks for guidance or direction, must so many people immediately come out and say you are not a true believer because you do not want to do things the way I did? Why is that these same people belittle any efforts to understand and codify the way music has been created in the past to inform how others might make music in the future?

It seems that music forums for modern music in general are not interested in encouraging questioning into the hows and whys of music creation, but rather push the cult of the blind leading the blind: "I don't know why it works, and you aren't allowed to know why either," seems to be clarion call that rings out whenever someones asks: "what makes this style work the way it does?".

Get a grip and let people learn the way they want to. This is not school and you can't hijack anyones desire to learn any more.
Click to expand...

How can you hijack someone's desires to learn when he has willingly abandoned his opinion in the subject in order to look for opinions from others?
 
Salem Beats said:
How can you hijack someone's desires to learn when he has willingly abandoned his opinion in the subject in order to look for opinions from others?
Click to expand...

Um, willingly abandoned his opinion??? On the contrary I think, asking for guidance shows far more engagement in the subject than blindly poking around in the dark hoping to find the key(hole) to success.

There is a place for experimentation but without guides in place any beginner is in danger of losing their way or falling over - we are all beginners at some level. When we learn a new style we are beginners.

There is nothing more courageous than to say I need help.

There is nothing more stupid and frustrating than saying to a beginner, "look within for the solution, when they are already aware that the solution lies elsewhere"
 
bandcoach said:
There is nothing more stupid and frustrating than saying to a beginner, "look within for the solution, when they are already aware that the solution lies elsewhere"
Click to expand...

I agree with you. There's nothing more frustrating than accepting the responsibility for your own failings.

There's also nothing more useless than someone who doesn't realize his potential.
 
Salem Beats said:
I agree with you. There's nothing more frustrating than accepting the responsibility for your own failings.

There's also nothing more useless than someone who doesn't realize his potential.
Click to expand...

What's your point. it comes across that you are upset that this guy says - I don't know what to do to achieve this, can someone tell me how it could be done.

Knowing your limits is the first part of identifying what you can do and what you want to learn.

It's almost as if you have a thing about people wanting to learn and admitting that they need help to do it.
 
bandcoach said:
What's your point. it comes across that you are upset that this guy says - I don't know what to do to achieve this, can someone tell me how it could be done.

Knowing your limits is the first part of identifying what you can do and what you want to learn.

It's almost as if you have a thing about people wanting to learn and admitting that they need help to do it.
Click to expand...

At the risk of sounding more argumentative than I intend to be...

It doesn't "come across" any particular way -- it's your responsibility for deriving meaning in my statement past the dictionary definitions of the words I put forth.

You think, in the era of Google, that the guy's main problem is that he can't find the material he needs to proceed?
I think he can use this link to find all of the material that he could need:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=intermediate+music+theory

There's plenty of material out there. I'm assuming that the guy's problem is an internal one: he's having a hard time breaking out of pre-existing patterns (as directly noted in the OP), is having a hard time coming up with the motivation to take time out of his day to practice new things, etc. Perhaps he's afraid of feelings of incompetency as a musician that arise when you start learning in a subject where you're totally incompetent. Defense of the ego's sense of supremacy is a common procrastination motivator.

I can only speculate on the specific internal problems that are keeping him from moving forward, but I'm convinced of this: His problem is not a lack of material.

To the OP, I re-emphasize: Fix the problem inside. Luckily, it's not related to music. Then, have fun playing music -- that IS why you're doing music to begin with, right?

-Ki
Salem Beats
 
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