Right hand melody...help?

R

RunRunFar

New member
Can anybody explain this to me because i'm really confused. I have hit a road block so to speak with melody's. I have been teaching myself music as of late and I understand the whole "starting at home venturing out and leaving then coming back" so to speak, but one thing that really confuses me is for example. I seen a guy on youtube playing something He said he was in C major but started off on E or something along those lines (def wasn't C).... Can you basically start off on any note in the scale and still be in Cmajor? or how does this work? Please don't go too heavy into it because it will confuse me that much more! lol

I just don't know how you could make "hundreds of songs" starting off on C everytime.


btw, this was suppost to be called right hand melody lol
 
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RunRunFar said:
btw, this was suppost to be called right hand melody lol
Click to expand...

fixed :)

Can anybody explain this to me because i'm really confused. I have hit a road block so to speak with melody's. I have been teaching myself music as of late and I understand the whole "starting at home venturing out and leaving then coming back" so to speak, but one thing that really confuses me is for example. I seen a guy on youtube playing something He said he was in C major but started off on E or something along those lines (def wasn't C).... Can you basically start off on any note in the scale and still be in Cmajor? or how does this work? Please don't go too heavy into it because it will confuse me that much more! lol

I just don't know how you could make "hundreds of songs" starting off on C everytime.
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starting on E is fine as is G (they are both part of the C major triad C-E-G)

however, I think you are slightly hidebound by the idea that you must start with C if you are in C major

A tune in C major could just as easily start on the G chord and then progress to the C chord as follows:

G-C-Am-F or G-Am-F-C or G-F-Am-C all are valid continuations of the starting to chord and all give a strong sense of being in C major when played
 
So essentially, If I wanna start my scale in Cmajor I can only use C,E, or G as my beginning chord / ending chord? I couldn't start it off with A,B,D,F?

That works with all scales also? For example, I want my scale to be Aminor (all the white keys) I can start it off with A,C,E.


One thing i'm not understanding is how people say you can create hundreds of songs with one just one scale. How is it possible?
This is kind of where i'm stuck at with music theory. Any suggestions on something to get me past this hurdle? Some books only go so far then they leave you hanging. I've never read a music theory book that told me I could use any chord in the tonic to start it off. It's always been the note you started playing is that scale.



Btw; Thank you for your response.
 
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you asked me to keep it simple, so I did

you can start on any chord and any note

there is no "you MUST start with his note and this chord" anywhere in the literature (books, websites)

just lots of suggestions and misinterpretations
 
until you get 7 distinct notes played you have no idea of your tonality or modality

the notes that make C major C major are c-d-e-f-g-a-b

We need to hear at least three different chords to establish a tonality

I (1-3-5), V(5-7-2) and IV(4-6-1)/ii(2-4-6): in C major these would be C, G and F/Dm.

With chords I and V we have 5 of the 7 notes for the key: 1-2-3-5-7

With chords I and IV we also have 5 of the 7 notes for the key: 1-3-4-5-6

With chords ii and V we have 5 of the 7 notes for the key 1-2-5-6-7

With chords IV and V we have 6 of the 7 notes for the key 1-2-4-5-6-7

With chords I, IV and V we have 7 of the 7 notes for the key 1-2-3-4-5-6-7

With chords I, ii and V we have 7 of the 7 notes for the key 1-2-3-4-5-6-7

in the progressions I gave above you get the following resulting scales:

G-C-Am-F (G-B-D+C-E-G+A-C-E+F-A-C => C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C)

G-Am-F-C (G-B-D+A-C-E+F-A-C+C-E-G => C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C)

G-F-Am-C (G-B-D+F-A-C+A-C-E+C-E-G => C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C)

consider the possible orderings of these four chords:

G-Am-C-F, G-Am-F-C, G-C-Am-F, G-C-F-Am, G-F-Am-C, G-F-C-Am,
C-Am-F-G, C-Am-G-F, C-F-Am-G, C-F-G-Am, C-G-Am-F, C-G-F-Am,
Am-C-F-G, Am-C-G-F, Am-F-C-G, Am-F-G-C, Am-G-C-F, Am-G-F-C,
F-Am-C-G, F-Am-G-C, F-C-Am-G, F-C-G-Am, F-G-Am-C, F-G-C-Am

all of these will resolve to a C major scale.

this does not mean that the sequence will not seem to meander and remain unsettled, but it does mean that we are firmly in C major or any one of the modes allied to it

I could have started on Dm and progressed as follows

Dm-G-C-F-Am

however, if I had continued as

Dm-G-C-F-Bb then I would have some issues, not least of which is did I modulate to F, the Bb would seem to indicate that that is what has happened, or have I borrowed either the G or the Bb from another key/parallel major/minor?

If I continued the above as

Dm-G-C-F-Bb-C then I still have a dichotomy of have modulated or am just borrowing chords from related keys

the last one uses a modal cadence in C Mixolydian as the final two chords, but we have previously established C major with the perfect cadence from G to C

as you can see this can get real tricky real quick
 
Hello RunRunFar,
I will try to keep it simple too, but I don't promise.
Your last question is:
So how would that be considered in the key of Cmajor then? Totally different sound.

You got the idea wrong. C major does not mean you need to start and end on Cmaj chord or note. Imagine how dumb will be the music then :). Try not to set too much boundaries on yourself.

What Cmajor means is that you need to use the notes that are in the C major scale. Now I'm not going to explain to you how to tell which notes are in there, cos you WILL get confused. Instead I'm going to give you a web site to tell you this ;).
C Major Guitar Scales

See? there are the notes of C major. - C, D, E, F, G, A, B
If you need the notes of D major just pick D major on the menu:
D Major Guitar Scales
D E F# G A B C#
Sorry the site is about guitars, but thats what I'm used to. You can google for a piano based site.

NOW!
what you need to understand and always do, are two things:
1. Every note that is in your song needs to be in the scale you choose. If your scale is C major, every single note needs to be from those listed above.

2. Every note of a chord you play, needs to contain notes from chis scale. Now calculating notes of a chord can be VERY confusing for someone not deep into theory, so there is a tool in this site for this too.

Chord Progressions

See? You chose C major scale and it told you what major and minor chords there are in it.
So if you want to play E chord in C major song that's fine. but it needs to be an E MINOR! chord, because E major contains an Gb note as a third which is not part of the C major scale - C D E F G A B but that's too complicated for now, so just stick to what the sites tell you.

If you wish play Fmaj, Amin, Dmin chords :).

I'm tempted to explain about chord progressions in different keys, but that's a little deeper into theory.

If you want other chords than just major or minor, this part of the site will tell you most of them:
Scales to Chords guitar tool

Choose a scale and it will tell you the chords, then use the other part to see what notes are there in it.
Then use whatever chord you wish of that scale as long as it sounds good and combines well with the others.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After that read about modes.
After you understand that, read about voicings and inversions. But that may happen after 2-3-4 months.
After that go read something about common chord progressions on the net, BUT don't take it as a rule. when you construct chords and which one of them is first second and third just experiment. Don't stick to the I IV V I "rule" which you'll eventually find and on most sites they will tell you that sounds best and most harmonic, because bla bla bla. Try to tell this to a jazz musician ;).

For now stick to the first part of my post. The second is just a guideline on how you should further approach music theory. In time you'll begin to understand WHY something sounds good :).

Good luck man ;).
 
DrCIH said:
NOW!
what you need to understand and always do, are two things:
1. Every note that is in your song needs to be in the scale you choose. If your scale is C major, every single note needs to be from those listed above.

2. Every note of a chord you play, needs to contain notes from chis scale. Now calculating notes of a chord can be VERY confusing for someone not deep into theory, so there is a tool in this site for this too.
Chord Progressions
Click to expand...

no, this is not true

if it were then most of the music we listen to would have to be wrong according to this statement
 
however, if I had continued as

Dm-G-C-F-Bb then I would have some issues, not least of which is did I modulate to F, the Bb would seem to indicate that that is what has happened, or have I borrowed either the G or the Bb from another key/parallel major/minor?
Click to expand...

Bb yes, but why the G? Isn't in C major scale? I don't understand it.
 
bandcoach said:
no, this is not true

if it were then most of the music we listen to would have to be wrong according to this statement
Click to expand...

I've always thought, that for example if the song is in Am, then you need to use chords with notes that are in Am scale, like Fmaj, Amin. Why is it wrong? Plaese explain.
 
the problem arises as G must have B natural but the Bb major chord suggests it should have a Bb instead i.e. it should perhaps be Gm

and so in the context of the progression we then get

Dm-Gm-C-F-Bb as opposed to the original progression of Dm-G-C-F-Bb

the two part question asked and partially answered straight after this progression was introduced is

1) have we modulated (possibly to F major or Dm or even Bb major (without continuation we cannot know for sure)) or

2) have we borrowed a chord from one or another of the parallel minor/major keys based on C (Bb can be found in the parallel minor of C and also in the relative sub dom major (F Major) and melodic minor (F mel minor))

as noted above it can get tricky real quick and hard to unravel unless your knowledge of theory is very deep, something the op said they wanted to avoid for now....
 
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DrCIH said:
I've always thought, that for example if the song is in Am, then you need to use chords with notes that are in Am scale, like Fmaj, Amin. Why is it wrong? Please explain.
Click to expand...

If I am in A minor I can readily use D major and E major as part of my chord progressions, which means that I am in fact using the melodic minor ascending only as a generator for chords. I might still use the natural minor scale for melodic purposes but my harmonic content is taken from elsewhere

also some melodic ideas in any key may use chromatic alterations to provide inflections into reciting notes (notes that are used for tonality anchoring) such as

C-C-G-G-F#-G----G-G-F#-G as found in some Caribbean styles like ska and reggae the key is C major and chord underneath would be C or G and the F# is definitely not part of the scale for C major or either of those chords, but it is still a part of the writing style.

the progression would be something like C-C-G-G-G-G-C-C-F-F-C-C-G-G-C-C-etc and so as you can see from this F is part of the scale framework as well; based on just the chord progression we would say that this piece is in C major, but the melodic material is using notes from outside of the scale....
 
I understood some of this, but some is just too confusing. lol.

I'm all types of confused right now. I found a post you did about modes on here using the search function, which you broke down pretty good. So i'm guessing that's where you can use whatever key you want in the scale.


Is there any quicker way of finding out what chords go with the scale rather than writing all that stuff down like you did? That got confusing pretty quick too, but then again i'm pretty tired. (if I don't respond, I went to sleep)

but I do appreciate it all!

I think what I need to do is just dive into music I keep trying to learn theory but i'm getting wrapped around stuff. I've yet to jump out from Cmajor or Aminor because of the theory.

Also; I don't think you have explained this (don't get me really confused here) but how can you create 100's of songs with just one scale? I just don't see how it's possible... Once again, I think i'm wrapped up too far in this theory. But I would like to see how.
 
Honestly, at this point, it would be beneficial learning an instrument (piano, for starters) and working through some basic songs with an instructor rather than sourcing random info off the internet. Seems like you're trying to learn "theory" but you don't quite understand the "music" aspect of it at all. "Quick and easy" is the way to more confusion. Get piano lessons and learn the basics from the ground up, this way you will never be too confused because you will have an established foundation.
 
What's the best website to teach myself piano, without all the theory involved? I know quiet a good bit of it now. I need to learn piano more.
 
bandcoach said:
If I am in A minor I can readily use D major and E major as part of my chord progressions, which means that I am in fact using the melodic minor ascending only as a generator for chords. I might still use the natural minor scale for melodic purposes but my harmonic content is taken from elsewhere

also some melodic ideas in any key may use chromatic alterations to provide inflections into reciting notes (notes that are used for tonality anchoring) such as

C-C-G-G-F#-G----G-G-F#-G as found in some Caribbean styles like ska and reggae the key is C major and chord underneath would be C or G and the F# is definitely not part of the scale for C major or either of those chords, but it is still a part of the writing style.

the progression would be something like C-C-G-G-G-G-C-C-F-F-C-C-G-G-C-C-etc and so as you can see from this F is part of the scale framework as well; based on just the chord progression we would say that this piece is in C major, but the melodic material is using notes from outside of the scale....
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What I've written is a little rule which keeps you in the scale, but you are right, that sometimes other notes may be used. Maybe the part in which I was wrong is cos i wrote "you must keep" to this rules. There are some occasions where you may not. My point is if you use notes only from the chosen scale, you can be sure, that your music wont sound wrong or disharmonic.
But there are a lot of misicians that use other notes in their melodies. The example you gave with melodic asc and desc is classical, cos first you have a minor 7th and that is in the natural minor scale. But after that you play major 7th and it's not, but it sounds good.
Jazz musicians often do that.

Am I right?

Oh and one song I want to give as an example is Separate ways by Journey
Song is in Em
The progression on the chorus is: E5 D5 C5 D5 D#5 E5 and it sounds great.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LatorN4P9aA
 
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RunRunFar said:
What's the best website to teach myself piano, without all the theory involved? I know quiet a good bit of it now. I need to learn piano more.
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without theory learning to play will be pointless: theory is the explanation of what you did afterwards, but it is also the little things like
how we name notes and durations,
how we talk about block chords (play all at once) vs arpeggiated chords (play one note after the other),
how we describe a scale and how it differs from other starting on the same note
how we describe structures
how we talk about instruments
how we describe melodic decorations to make the notation simpler (use of symbols vs writing the whole thing out)
and so on
 
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RunRunFar said:
What's the best website to teach myself piano, without all the theory involved? I know quiet a good bit of it now. I need to learn piano more.
Click to expand...

There is none man. Especially on the piano. Everything there is notes. If you want to know what you are doing, you need to understand some theory. But don't be afraid of it. Do it step by step.

With the piano eveything is notes, it's like reading without knowing the alphabet or the words :). In order to read, you need to know at least them right?
By the way I know guitarists, that know absolutely no theory. They don't even know the notes. They think bemol and minor are one and the same thing. But use tablatures and other stuff on net to play.
However that's not the case with the piano ;). If you don't want to learn theory get a guitar and watch tablatures. :)
 
DrCIH said:
There is none man. Especially on the piano. Everything there is notes. If you want to know what you are doing, you need to understand some theory. But don't be afraid of it. Do it step by step.

With the piano eveything is notes, it's like reading without knowing the alphabet or the words :). In order to read, you need to know at least them right?
By the way I know guitarists, that know absolutely no theory. They don't even know the notes. They think bemol and minor are one and the same thing. But use tablatures and other stuff on net to play.
However that's not the case with the piano ;). If you don't want to learn theory get a guitar and watch tablatures. :)
Click to expand...
You mean, you only know guitarists that know absolutely no theory, ;) Generalizations are a sign of ignorance.
I get the stigma of guitarists being lazy, but that certainly doesn't apply to myself or players like:
Pat Metheny
George Benson
Sharon Isbin
Kurt Rosenwinkel
Kenny Burrell
Stanley Jordan
Pat Martino
Dave Stryker
etc......
 
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