A question about theory and it's purpose

R

reds91

New member
Hey guys, how's it going? So I've been making music for a long time through various means. Lately I've been having sort of an argument with myself over whether I need to continue to learn theory. I know how to figure out what key a song is in and I know how to figure out the chords that fit in a key, so my question is why do I really need to know anything further than this? Really when I'm coming up with songs, I'm not thinking logically about how a the next note with sound good because it's one semitone up or this chord will sound good cause it's a minor 7th, I just sort of play with sounds until I find something that pleases me. I try to use theory as little as possible because I feel limited and constricted by it and it makes music seem too mathematical to me. Anyone else feel this way? I will continue to learn theory I feel it's necessary but at this point I really can't convince myself. Am I missing something? Please enlighten me if so.

Btw, I tend to work in the key of C a lot for obvious reasons, is there a downside to this?
 
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Well, I know music theory pretty well, but when it comes to making music, I do not care much. I won't advice giving it up though. It's useful to know and broadens your range of vision, to say very least. It's like a kung fu - true master doesn't use it everyday, however at one moment it saves his life :D

As for working in C - I think chromatic vs diatonic is like democrats vs republicans... A matter of choice. One situation is when one can't use sharps properly, but there are also those who know-how but prefer diatonic - it depends on a personal choice.

And I think there are more things a musician should take into account except music theory. Music theory is not everything. Simple example: if you're using two instruments which play in the same range and muffle each other, a score may look like a perfect combo, in terms of interaction of notes, but it would be a failure nevertheless. So I basically have the same attitude as yours: I trust my ear. I'm experienced enough to afford it :)
 
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Monserrat said:
Well, I know music theory pretty well, but when it comes to making music, I do not care much. I won't advice giving it up though. It's useful to know and broadens your range of vision, to say very least. It's like a kung fu - true master doesn't use it everyday, however at one moment it saves his life :D

As for working in C - I think chromatic vs diatonic is like democrats vs republicans... A matter of choice. One situation is when one can't use sharps properly, but there are also those who know-how but prefer diatonic - it depends on a personal choice.

And I think there are more things a musician should take into account except music theory. Music theory is not everything. Simple example: if you're using two instruments which play in the same range and muffle each other, a score may look like a perfect combo, in terms of interaction of notes, but it would be a failure nevertheless. So I basically have the same attitude as yours: I trust my ear. I'm experienced enough to afford it :)
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Thanks for the insightful reply! Do you think learning theory will make my music quality better if I already can come up with melodies in my head though? Oh and just cause I'm working in C doesn't mean I'm afraid of throwing in sharps; if it sounds good it sounds good.
 
I'm similar to both of you in ways but if you compose only in C, maybe you could do with taking on more information? If anything, you could just learn some more scales and incorporate them into your work at your own pace.

If you have a good ear, you will be surprised at how much of it you already know, how many of the scales sound familiar and you will be able to find patterns quicker than a book can tell you, so I think its always beneficial to keep it up.
 
LostProfit said:
I'm similar to both of you in ways but if you compose only in C, maybe you could do with taking on more information? If anything, you could just learn some more scales and incorporate them into your work at your own pace.

If you have a good ear, you will be surprised at how much of it you already know, how many of the scales sound familiar and you will be able to find patterns quicker than a book can tell you, so I think its always beneficial to keep it up.
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It's not because it's the only scale I know it's just easiest. From my perspective there's really no difference between a C major or an E major scale, so why not choose the easier option? If you know one major scale you know them all... Unless were talking about harmonic minors and all those other obscure scales
 
reds91 said:
Unless were talking about harmonic minors and all those other obscure scales
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I think we are talking about those ;)

I exhibit a lot more modality than I'm able to understand, so I can't really relay what I mean. But I'm the type of player who will start on any note and find its connectivity with others through experimentation. When you find out that you are applying to a lot of rules at once, things start to make sense, but it takes moving out of the key of C to see where you can go next. If you struggle to get away from the Diatonic scale, theory can only help you. I actually got so sick of playing Dorian in C that I had to switch to D for practice. Now I can't really play in C without vomiting.
 
reds91 said:
Thanks for the insightful reply! Do you think learning theory will make my music quality better if I already can come up with melodies in my head though? Oh and just cause I'm working in C doesn't mean I'm afraid of throwing in sharps; if it sounds good it sounds good.
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I think that the most important thing is to be able to play (or notate) those melodies from your head. If you can do that, great then! However, learning composition can help you to come up with better melodies, that's for sure. It depends on your attitude towards music - how do you arrange it etc. I mean, usually melodies in electronic music are rather looped than free-flowing, you use sequences and introduce the new ones during the track. And if you want to have a lead (solo) part to have some development, music theory definitely will be helpful. You can come up with more complex melodies and your music won't sound one-dimensional but will be more breathtaking, and listener can forget what did it started from and will have a desire to listen once again - well, thoughtful listener at least :D Mostly it is easy to follow the melodic line, rhythm etc. throughout the song because of generic harmonies and predictability. At your - and anyone's, - place I would fear using music theory as a set of strict rules. You see, there's a I-III-IV progression, and Frank Zappa said about it that it's a "bad white people music". And all those people he was talking about read music theory books, composed using the same principles (I-III-IV or something else cemented in them), and it is something to avoid. Otherwise, you should use music theory as something that helps you broaden your music and not make it to satisfy common set of composing rules.

So, I think, I answered your question. Learning theory can make your music better. As for me, good music is exciting one and it can't be boring. So if you will forget that music is fun first of all, and will go deeply into parallel sevenths, it as well can make it worse... And quality is a pretty vague term - audio engineering will more likely affect it. I personally do not care about 'quality' of music if it has no soul - if song sounds quirky and catchy, I do not mind if it was recorded in a garage.
 
hmmm good info guys. I guess it can't hurt to learn a bit more, it's a pity I find it so boring though.
 
Firstly it is not necessary to know any theory to make good music. Just listen to some of the music from around the world where music teaching is little. You can also rise to the top without any deep study of music theory - the Beatles did this. It's more a case of what is best for you to make good music.

For me it is more a case of learning something new to make my songs better. This could be: Learning some new chords, learning a new instrument or even some non-musical inspiration such as reading a book or seeing a film. It could also be something theoretical off course if you want to go that way. I agree with what is said above - music theory can make your music better.

My advice would be to go this route and just learn things as you go. If you're coming up with good music then there isn't a problem anyway. You don't want to get slowed down by mechanics that may inhibit your natural ability, but you also don't want to pass on an opportunity to learn to make better music - whatever you think that is.

I would play things by ear as to what you want to do :)
 
Music theory is an explanatory tool: it tells you what happened and how it happened. It can be used a guide when venturing into unknown territory.

My take is that if you think you know enough, fine, keep doing what you're doing. If you find that it becomes stale. then come back and learn some more.

The Frank Zappa quote from montserrat is apposite (although it is I- bIII-IV). Even though he worked with the Monkeys on their movie Head, a lot of their chord progs are based on this. So are some of AC/DC's early material, specifically because Angus liked the fact that information about powering his brothers amplifier translated into a chord progression - he had power and inspiration in the one message. Ditto f or the Rolling Stones. Add to that progression, The Carlos Santana Secret Chord Progression (a Frank Zappa song, but also the essence of early Santana band music) is essentially i-IV with the odd V thrown in.

Thing is if you want to progress as a musician, you will need to break out of your ruts, which means expanding your theory knowledge as both an explanatory tool and a guiding tool.

@Ep9: knowing theory or not is not the question
Emmapeel9 said:
I'm not much of a music theory person myself; it's not really relevant for me.
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Emmapeel9 said:
I am not a theory person.
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Emmapeel9 said:
havent learnt a lot of theory though, so can't really comment [on the graph.]
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take the time and learn a whole other scale, like f#. Work your way through some progressions. and PRACTICE. you will see a difference in your music!
 
It's always helpful to know more. However, it's very easy to transpose midi. Even if you only play in C, it's very easy to play in all the other scales with transposing.

---------- Post added at 10:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:46 AM ----------

Many, if not most, midi keyboards let you transpose in real time as you play, but if not, it's really easy to still transpose afterward.
 
Would have been better to say

Reputedly, Irving Berlin could only play in Gb major/F#major and others would transpose his songs into the correct key for themselves to sing.
 
@Band coach
I don't know the reason why you have quoted me three times but the personal nature of this is getting a bit annoying - lets make this the last time mmm?


I am not a music theory person. I don't study music theory to help me make music. I can pretty much write a whole song in my head in a few minutes so what is the point. This is quite a common thing with writers and you will often hear how a song came together for someone in 5 minutes.

Can studying music theory make my songs better? I've always thought that it would be a bad thing for me to get too much into mechanics. There is not much music created by people more into music theory that I am jealous of either.

It's not that I am averse to study either. My reading of chess books is somewhere in the three figure area when I was into that. I have a very mathematical side to my brain if I want to use it. Music is different though - much of it is beyond mathematics and I wouldn't want to be held back by the mechanics too much.

This is just me though and it will be different for everyone as to how they best make music.

This is not to say that I don't learn theoretical things though. I like learning new things about music - just not deep study. I like to interpret things in my own way too and not how others dictate it to me.

It is not an either/or situation as some people are implying. Music theory is a wide ranging term and could mean anything used to explain music. You can learn what you want and how you want to do it. It's the music you make at the end that is the important thing.
 
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Emmapeel9 said:
@Band coach
I don't know the reason why you have quoted me three times but the personal nature of this is getting a bit annoying
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Thank you for the new quote - I will not stop - I promised you a while back that as long as you offered an opinion on the use or utility of music theory, then I would quote back the above. You have just broadened my arsenal not lessened it.

I would also point out that most of your post above reads "I fear that I will compromise myself" - this is the catch cry of anyone who doesn't understand what they are talking about in my vast experience, not just in music but in every walk of life.
 
@Bandcoach
Well if you don't stop this childishness I'll get someone to explain things to you.

Probably most composers would consider themselves non-music theory people so what you're doing is being personal. I don't mind a little bit of fun but you're taking this too far.

And are you actually implying that only certain people can answer threads - only those that you deem worthy.

I'm pretty good at sticking up for myself but it's not fair on other people if this section gets as silly as it got not so long ago. Stick to the rules, respect other people and respect other peoples opinions.
 
Darling, grow up.

I am simply stating that if you don't know enough about the subject to have an informed opinion then don't offer it. Saying, "I don't know much about theory," as a precursor is not sufficient, as you are basically saying, "I don't know what I am talking about," by making that statement.

This is also the basic position of quite a few of the moderators as stated in other threads, so grow up, accept that if you don't know what the poster is asking that you should refrain from answering.
 
You do understand that what you have said is sexist and pretty bad right? I do understand that it is a big world with many different views but it's important to treat everyone with the same respect regerdless of gender.

Normally I'd just let this go but you are beginning to become really annoying....
 
I thought I was being ageist if anything there is nothing misogynistic or sexist in what I wrote.

Your constant commenting on something that you have no depth of understanding off is becoming annoying also......
 
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