Jazz Piano Theory

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adamadamadam

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Hi,

I've been reading Mark Levine's: The Jazz Piano Book and at the beginning, when it comes to the left hand, all he ever wants to do are rootless voicings.

I was just wondering if this was a good way to learn especially if you are new to jazz (like me) and can't really hear a song's structure without the root. And if you're playing solo isn't it better to at least use some chords with roots in them?

I know in the later chapters he starts using roots a bit more except I find that I can't really improvise if I don't know where the song is going. Should I skip ahead to later chapters or should I just persist and stop bloody moaning cos he knows much better than I do?

Thanks in advance,
adam
 
adamadamadam said:
I was just wondering if this was a good way to learn especially if you are new to jazz (like me) and can't really hear a song's structure without the root. And if you're playing solo isn't it better to at least use some chords with roots in them?
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lol, that's why u have to do it. If you think you must have the root notes all the time, then this is an ideal way to get you out of this bad habbit.

It is very frequent that Jazz chords are constructed in a away to leave out the tonic note, after in tonal harmony, it is perfectly legal to leave out the fifth, why not go one step further and omit the root (the tonic) It creates a very interesting set of sounds
 
He's leaving out the root, and probably the 5th because...

The root is usually played by the bassist, and the 5th is not necessary to identify a chord.

I learned voicings with the root first. I'm surprised that a book would start with rootless voicings. What level is the book supposed to be?

I wouldn't say it's better or worse to use the roots when playing solo, but remember, it's usually left out because someone else in the band is playing it. It would also depend on what your playing in the melody. If the melody line helps to identify the harmony, then you could leave the root out. If the melody line is sparse or ambiguous, a 3rd and 7th could be mistaken for a root and 5th in another key and your progression may not sound like you intended.
 
Bezo said:
He's leaving out the root, and probably the 5th because...

The root is usually played by the bassist, and the 5th is not necessary to identify a chord.

I learned voicings with the root first. I'm surprised that a book would start with rootless voicings. What level is the book supposed to be?
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That's the same thing that I was thinking. I love rootless voicings especially when I'm doing modal jazz stuff, but I first leared how to play chords with the roots.
 
Thanks for the replies guys,

Well I suppose I exaggerated a little. There are voicings with root at the beginning of the book except theyre a little boring.

How do you identify a modal jazz tune?
 
My opinion is that chords do sound better with a root (or at least base) note when playing solo.
The book explains well though how to play your chords and play the lines on top of them. That way using twho hands for both the chords and the melody you'll have plenty of fingers left to play that base note.

It's important to play them as a novice player becouse you can only hear the meaning of the voicing when it's put within a certain context.
When some intervals lets say 3 are played in the key of C it could be a Cma7 or a C#b5 or a Fma6 I could name all possible note from that key as a root note but it all depends on the bas note how the chords shoudl be interpreted.

You shouldn't play base notes at all when comping with a bas player.
But then again this isn't always true but hey that's music :-)

Hope this makes sence.
Cheers,

Pax
 
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bosko said:
Sorry but what are VOICINGS?
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It's the terminology used for the ways to spell chords. For example, a C major chord, using one hand, can be spelled 3 ways. C, E, G; E, G, C(1st inversion); G, C, E(2nd inversion). Adding the other hand allows for even more combinations. Each spelling is called a voicing.
 
Adam, I know exactly what U're talkin about because I had 2 break that habit 2. Really, it's all about what everyone else has been saying; the bass. There are obviously real "rules" of music, but here's what I would do as just a simple guideline 2 help U until U feel little more comfortable...
1) When U're playing by yourself, line the bass line up so that U're creating leading tones with the bass while playing your "rootless" chords on the right hand. Obviously that doesn't mean ONLY play bass notes. Because even if U're playing the root in the bass U can still create some serious tone objections just by adding some leading tones (accidentals). Because overall I think it's really all about the listener hearing a sense of direction in music. That's why the bass is so vital, it literally makes the music move. If people listening don't hear a since of direction it just sounds like your just playing some chords. It's the equivalent of playing a diminished chord and getting up and walking away. It sounds like rubbish by itself, but when U resolve it the direction you were going in becomes obvious.

2) When u're playing with a bass player, play ALL & ANY voicing U want, for reasons that I already mentioned. (Unless there are singers present but that's a whole other thread)....I also play bass and I learned how to play bass in my church. If the I had never heard the song b4, the kat on piano would point at the bass note a beat or 2 b4 he played it. Obviously at first I would mess up BAD, & when I did I noticed that the G#min 11 b5 b9, or whatever the hell he was playing, sounded very ominous like it had no backbone. And there are times when I'm playing with some kats and I take my bass off to maybe play something else IMMEDIATLY the keyboard player will start playing the bass notes (roots) in the left hand and chordin' with the right -->>that implies that he wasn't playing them 2 begin with.

Anywho, I'd say work through the book a little in order, because regardless of how insignificant it may seem it could the very thing U need 2 break that habit. Go sit in on some open mic sessions and U'll see EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

That's my story & I'm stinkin' 2 it.
 
Mmmmmmmmmmm, that book is probably one of the best resources for any pianist wanting to improve their ability to play in a wide range of situations.
BUT-------- you must have a reasonable knowledge of BOTH jazz thoery AND actual jazz playing.
If you are not, or have never played in a trio or quartet situation then your missing a huge part of the equation. Things like the Abersold play alongs, as horrible as they are, will give you an idea of what it is to play in a band, but at the end of it all, you're gonna have to throw yourself in the deep end and do some jamming with whoever you can find.
<<<Jazz does not come from books>>>
 
this sounds wrong to me, every chord has a root. a "rootless voicing" sounds to me like a melody or series of notes played which relates to a root or key somehow. to say that your playing notes with no root is like saying your playing random notes.

the whole idea of sorting tones into the chromatic scale is so that we can have root notes and such

im no jazz expert, but jazz seems to be sort fo instinctual..... but even jazz has soem semblance of keys, and when you have keys you can have roots. maybe the jazz player "feels" the key and playes some related notes.


i guess what im trying to say is that notes are all related to each other, with roots and correlations.
 
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Of course every chord has a root, but you don't need to play it while comping. In fact, bass players get pissed off if the piano player plays the root all the time! First of all, he's got it covered, and second, you could create some really weird difference tones between the root you play and the bass line he's playing.

to say that your playing notes with no root is like saying your playing random notes.
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Saying "Playing notes with no root" DOES sound like random notes, BUT that's not what they mean -- rephrase it to "Playing chords with no roots." Then, you're playing a chord -- an accepted structure of notes, as opposed to a random collection. (But then, isn't every chord just a random collection?? Anyway...)

Once you free yourself of the chord's root, it's fun to get real creative with the chord extensions. Like someone else said here, that's when things get really interesting.

But, with that being said, I think it's better to learn voicings first with the root because it gives you some sort of grounding...some frame of reference. It's like why we learn to play be-bop in music school - so you have a base to grow from.

I think I'm going to check out that book. Peace.
 
I've enjoyed the Jazz Piano theory book tremendously, but this discussion seems to miss the point that altered chords--besides often sounding cool and modern--are desirable in jazz because they help distort the mold cast by the chord progression of the original tune.

The flaw most jazz theory & performance pedagogical material is that the important central relationships aren't given focus; namely, how certain improv versions of the original tune/chord progression relate better than others. Without that, jazz is reduced to licks and passagework.
 
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