House Piano Variation Advice Please

S

SimonT

Member
https://soundcloud.com/creativemind75/housepianochords

Here is a house track I'm working on.

I know the bass isn't great, a lot of improvement there.

What I would like to know though, how can I spice my chord progressions up?

I had a go at putting some high octave 5 piano notes over the top.

The first 8 bars are an F-Gm with the bass notes changing, the next 8 bars are the same but with my high octave piano notes over the top. What do you think? a bit Robert Miles I think. The next 8 bars the chords are F-Gm, D#-F, A#-Cm with the same bass notes, then it repeats again with the high octave piano notes. I think I would've probably preferred to vary the chord sequence up and leave the high octave melody out, or maybe bring that in towards the end of the song.

Any feedback much appreciated.

Thanks!
 
Very nice man. What software did you use?

I'm on Reason 8. Still playing catch up in some respects, but it is an awesome software.

I liked what you did with it. Nice vibe to it, more relaxed and a bit of jazziness to the chords. I need to develop more technique to my stuff. You used the 3 main chord progression instead of the repeated one didn't you? then it sounds like you added a couple of chords to it at the end of the loop, or variated them. Is that a pad that comes in at about 10 seconds, or strings?
I've just spent a couple of hours working on it, this is how I've developed it:-

https://soundcloud.com/creativemind75/out-of-your-mind

I used the repeated piano bit for the verses and the 3 main chord part in the chorus.

I wouldn't mind you explaining what you did there. Very good. I like the organ you used, but can't make my mind up now which one I prefer. The piano or organ. I always initially wanted it to be a piano.

Do you make deep house btw? it had a very deep house feel, and I loved the bassline too btw. These things (like the bassline) I need to learn too. I only really have 7 basslines I use. In house, it's usually like 16th notes on the kick style or the16th notes on the offbeats style, the on the beat and on the offbeat 2 octave style like I used in the original clip or there's a pattern or 2 I make up just from my head, and I dabble in trance, and there's 3 I used for that, again, the on the offbeat one, or the double or triple style classic trance style bassline. Need to get that groove going on you did there.

Thanks!
 
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Hi SimonT,

Thanks for the compliment. I liked your theme (repeating piano chords). This element is what defines your song (it's the 'hook'). I tried to build around that using PWM strings (that's what starts around the 10 second mark). I treat the bassline as a melody. This makes sense as the 'hook' is not a melody itself, so you don't have 2 melodies fighting with each other.

What allows a good baseline is a well-thought-out harmonic scheme. The first 4 bars I used Gminor, G minor with a B flat as base note, C minor, D major. The next scheme is Gminor, B flat major, C minor with an E flat as base note, and then D major. This change in harmony allows for a base melody that touches many different notes without causing dissonant tones. If I would proceed working on the song, I would keep using new, different harmonic schemes, and that would also be my recommendation for your "Out-of-your-mind" project. Try not to be 'trapped' within 1 or 2 chord progressions for the entire song (I always find this to be a challenge).

Obviously I 'initiated' or 'introduced' the drum kit first. I decided not to start out with a bass drum. Starting softly again builds up tension.

Furthermore, I decided not to have the repeating chords to be played by the same instrument as the 'high' piano notes. This allows for a few 'tricks':
1. Add more reverb for the high notes than the chords.
2. Pan to a different location within the stereo image.
3. Different sound makes it easy for the listener to seperate both elements.

BTW for this kind of work I use a Yamaha Motif XF8 workstation. It allows for very fast music creation from a basic theme. I could extract the 'sheet music' from what I did, or play the instruments seperately if it is useful for you.

Just let me know.
 
Very handy tips there mate, thanks.

Could do with finding something online that can tell me what notes I can use as a bassline with all the different chords.

As for getting trapped in the '2 or 3 chord progressions for an entire song thing' - that's the whole basis of this thread really, to try and get some hints/tips on how to progress the chord structure as the song evolves. In the song of mine, it does this but I used the repeating piano part on the verses and the 3 chord one for the chorus, then back to vary it. Did you listen to what I've done to it?

The Yamaha isn't being played into a daw/software then? must be, how did you get it uploaded to soundcloud if not?
 
Yeah just heard it mate, nice. Needs a build up to when the kick kicks in. A snare roll or white noise woosh at around 28-30 seconds. So what music do you make?
 
Hi Simon_T

I listened to your longer track, I really liked the notes (d c b flat c d and so on) starting at 1:17. I based my comments on that.

As for how to progress harmonically, that I think is a creative process that I cannot explain as a 'protocol'. I could show various developments as I would use them. But everytime, every song is so different...

For example, I used a new scheme in the next 8 bars, which I posted in my previous post. But it could have gone into many other directions (including those I couldn't make up myself)

The workstation I use can record audio either via USB-drive or Cubase (DAW), it is very handy.:D
 
I just wrote some lyrics/vocal melody to that piece of yours. Sounds great. Can you send me the midi files via e-mail for the bass and main chords that start? I feel a colab coming on.
 
one of the core features of cubase from day 1 - it was one of the distinguishing features between it and its predecessor Pro24 - great scoring possibilities as well as a solid audio engine and the same great midi engine from Pro24

a small correction: in this tonal center (F mixolydian - F-G-A-Bb-C-D-Eb-F) you would name the following chords differently: D# -> Eb, and A# -> Bb

the only additional advice I would give you for your progression is to think of the following possibilities

1) rhythmic variation
2) use arpeggios as well as block chords
3) relative minor/major substitution, e.g. Dm-Gm or Dm-Bb or Cm-F or Cm-Dm or Gm-Cm or Gm-Eb
4) substitute the chord above with same bass note resolving to the actual chord - e.g. Gm/F-F or Amb5/G (F7 in drag)-Gm or F/Eb-Eb or Cm/Bb-Bb or Dm/C-Cm
5) substitute the chord below with same bass note resolving to the actual chord - e.g. Eb/F-F or F/G-Gm or Dm/Eb-Eb or Amb5/Bb-Bb or Bb/C-Cm


Dm ~ D-F-A
Gm ~ G-Bb-D
Bb ~ Bb-D-F
Cm ~ C-Eb-G
F ~ F-A-C
Eb ~ Eb-G-Bb
Gm/F ~ G-Bb-D with a F in the bass
Amb5/G ~ A-C-Eb with a G in the bass
F/Eb ~ F-A-C with a Eb in the bass
Cm/Bb ~ C-Eb-G with a Bb in the bass
Dm/C ~ D-F-A with a C in the bass
Eb/F ~ Eb-G-Bb with a F in the bass
F/G ~ F-A-C with a G in the bass
Dm/Eb ~ D-F-A with a Eb in the bass
Amb5/Bb ~ A-C-Eb with a Bb in the bass
Bb/C ~ Bb-D-F with a C in the bass
 
Thanks The_Music_Channel, the file worked fine. Will have a looksy tomorrow.

Bandcoach - What do you mean by rhythmic variation and is there any links you know of that could further explain this? I will look into arpeggios too.

And didn't understand numbers 4 or 5 or what the bottom bit underneath means properly? sorry, can you elaborate?

Does the Gm/F mean a Gm/F chord meaning a Gm with an F bass note? or are you referring to playing a Gm with an F bass note under it?

Thanks!
 
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what 4 and 5 mean is instead of just playing the chord use the chord immediately above it (below it) in the scaae (i.e. for an F chord that is Gm above and Eb below) but maintain the same bass note

you can play the chord before after; e.g. Gm/F - F or F- Gm/F or Eb/F - F or F -Eb/F

the /X means put that note in the bass under the chord it is attached to. the last bit simply tells you what notes are in each chord type indicated in the post

as for rhythmic variation: you might have a rhythm like x--x--x-x--x--x- in each bar, vary it by maybe doing one of the following:

accetns patternshits as 16ths
3-3-3-3-2-2x--x--x--x--x-x-
3-3-3-2-3-2x--x--x--x-x--x-
3-3-2-3-3-2x--x--x-x--x--x-
3-2-3-3-3-2x--x-x--x--x--x-
2-3-3-3-3-2x-x--x--x--x--x-
3-3-3-2-2-3x--x--x--x-x-x--
3-3-2-3-2-3x--x--x-x--x-x--
3-2-3-3-2-3x--x-x--x--x-x--
2-3-3-3-2-3x-x--x--x--x-x--
3-3-2-2-3-3x--x--x-x-x--x--
3-2-3-2-3-3x--x-x--x-x--x--
2-3-3-2-3-3x-x--x--x-x--x--
3-2-2-3-3-3x--x-x-x--x--x--
2-3-2-3-3-3x-x--x-x--x--x--
2-2-3-3-3-3x-x-x--x--x--x--

additional ideas include arpeggios up, down, out and then back down or back up, and swapping the rhythmic accents within the arpeggio patterns
 
So I need to learn my minor and major scales then? is this just a scale of notes or chords, or is there not a chord scale? just a scale overall. Sorry mate, bit lost as you can tell lol!

I should learn the piano really. I can play the guitar but I find when I've tried to start learning the piano 2 or 3 times before, but I always get frustrated and give up, for 4 reasons.

1 - I find it confusing (where as on guitar, guitar chords have much more easily identifiable shapes). When I learn a minor shape on piano and move it up, it changes shape etc.
2 - My fingers seem stiff or too rigid, not flexible enough.
3 - I find it hard to stretch over on some chords where you need to. I have an 8.5" handspan, and can just about make an octave thumb to pinky. Then I think, well women play piano well, such as Adele, Emile Sande and Tori Amos and they can't have handpspans bigger than me surely. Nor can Elton John, he's only a little guy. I'm 5'8 and he is only about 5'7 or something so his handspan can't be bigger than mine really I wouldn't imagine.
4 - Trying to play with both hands (lower bass keys and higher chord keys) doing different patterns gets me too. Confuses the brain big time lol!

Should I start learning by doing scales, or do you think I should learn songs. 3 I have desires to play would be John Lennons Imagine, Let It Be and Tiny Dancer by Elton John but the latter might be a bit advanced.

I also like the Hill Street Blues themetune, She's a Rainbow - Rolling Stones, Karma Police - Radiohead and many Coldplay and Keane tracks.

Heart and Soul is always a good one to start with I've been told made famous by Tom Hanks in the film BIG. Using both hands for co-ordination.
 
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your aspirations for piano can only be met by practice, practice, practice: practice scales, practice arpeggios, practice hand coordination

as for a scale and its chords: all well defined and easily identified with a little, you guessed it, practice

For F Mixolydian (aka Bb major) (F-G-A-Bb-C-D-Eb-F)

scale positionnote nameChord NumChord namechord tones
1FIFF-A-C
2GiiGmG-Bb-D
3Aiiib5Amb5A-C-Eb
4BbIVBbBb-D-F
5CvCmC-Eb-G
6DviDmD-F-A
b7EbbVIIEbEb-G-Bb
(8)(F)(I)(F)(F-A-C)

b's in front of scale tone numbers and chord numbers indicate that the note is 1 semitone lower than the similar note based on the tonic major scale and that the chord is similarly based

tonic means first note or naming note of a scale, not to be confused with root which is the naming note of a chord

basic rule of chord building (which you should probably know but I have learnt never to assume anything here at fp) take a note, skip the next scale tone take the next note skip a scale tone take the next note, e.g for the chords of F Mixolydian this would be (every other note is bolded - take any three consecutive bolded notes and you have one of the triads of F Mixolydian)

F-G-A-Bb-C-D-Eb-F-G-A-Bb-C-D-Eb-F-G-A

this same procedure holds true for every major and minor scale and every mode of those scales
 
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bandcoach said:
your aspirations for piano can only be met by practice, practice, practice: practice scales, practice arpeggios, practice hand coordination
Click to expand...
100% true.
I would argue that the guitar, although it is a great instrument, is somewhat limited when it comes to figuring out chords and learning new / figuring out unknown ones.
- Piano allows for chords consisting of 10 simultaneous notes (when using 2 hands).
- Piano provides possibility of different dynamics for specific tones in a chord
- Piano has broader range (higher & lower)

Therefore I think practicing on the piano ultimately be more than worth your trouble. It pays off.
 
I would add the one key difference between piano and guitar - you only have one position for every note on the piano, the guitar can have up to six different positions for the same pitched note e.g. E[sub]3[/sub] can be an open string 5th fret B string, 9th fret G string, 14th fret D string, 19th fret A string, 24th fret low E string - that, more than anything else, makes it difficult to do chord work on guitar initially
 
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