good kick drum layering methods,info on diffrent kick drums

[demirtas1]

the only thing i have trouble wiht is layering kick drums, im trying to get a nice drum hit going but some times it sounds bad,i try to layer high frequency kick drums with low frequency kdrums but it never sounds as good as maybe kanye west or neptunes kick drums....i know im supposed to use eq's,reverbs & also tweek the mixer channels to be able to get that perfect kick drum hit,(example fat joe lean back, kick drum , i think thats a low frequency,kdrum....or even the black rob woa!!! kick drum,which bumps real nice,but when i try to do the same kind of kdrum,it just doesent,give off that same kind of bump,im good at layering snares but when it comes to kick drums im never fully satisfied with the final product...90% of my beats incorperate some kind of kick drum.........some times the kick drum hit is even worse when i mix in diffrent insturments,and samples, like when the kick drum hits at the same time as a snare, the kdrum hits a little weaker........can anyone also get me info on diffrent types of kick drums, pretty much any ideas and info on (hip-hop) type pf kick drums.........i use reason 2.5 the drum machine that comes with reason is redrum.

[dvyce]

Originally posted by demirtas1
the only thing i have trouble wiht is layering kick drums, im trying to get a nice drum hit going but some times it sounds bad,i try to layer high frequency kick drums with low frequency kdrums but it never sounds as good as maybe kanye west or neptunes kick drums....i know im supposed to use eq's,reverbs & also tweek the mixer channels to be able to get that perfect kick drum hit,(example fat joe lean back, kick drum , i think thats a low frequency,kdrum....or even the black rob woa!!! kick drum,which bumps real nice,but when i try to do the same kind of kdrum,it just doesent,give off that same kind of bump,im good at layering snares but when it comes to kick drums im never fully satisfied with the final product...90% of my beats incorperate some kind of kick drum.........some times the kick drum hit is even worse when i mix in diffrent insturments,and samples, like when the kick drum hits at the same time as a snare, the kdrum hits a little weaker........can anyone also get me info on diffrent types of kick drums, pretty much any ideas and info on (hip-hop) type pf kick drums.........i use reason 2.5 the drum machine that comes with reason is redrum.

Your kick drums simply coming straight out of reason will not sound as good as those pros you mentioned for several reasons.

Keep in mind that they have experienced engineers mixing the sounds and tracks. They have pro equipment that the sounds are recorded through. The songs have been professionally mastered... etc, etc.

A lot of the issues you are mentioning seem to be mixing issues. As you learn more about mixing and become better at EQ'ing and compressing (etc) your sounds to fit together better, a lot of your problems will be solved.

I don't even think layering is your problem... I would guess it is more of a mix issue.

You mention the kick being weaker when it hits at the same time as the snare... do you have a compressor on the overall drum track? A compressor used in this way could give you that unwanted result if you don't really understand how to use it.

can you compress and EQ and effect each drum separately/individually in redrum? or can you only process the whole redrum at once?

[demirtas1]

yes i can eq and compress each specific channel that has a kick drum or even snare,also i read what u wrote and i really agree with what u said,that its all in the mixing,for the first time i tryed mixing 2 kdrums layered but at diffrent levels and like u said i got a better sounding kick drum.........i have been making beats for 9 months and i have focused my time on the beat making process,building diffrent patterns,layering......now that i feel more confortable with the beat making process(which i will have to allways keep working on)i want to get some experiance on the mixing part of the process and adding in compression ,eq and reverbs....reason2.5 has a 14ch mixer(which was designed after a makie mixer)......i cant remember which model # makie but i will let u know.......i have a very low budget setup,everything i have evolves around the reason 2.5 software,i also have sonar 3 pro edition i also have cubase sx but i really havent learned how to use the daw softwares and ireally also want to put in the time 2 learn these 2 softwares but i guess in due time......i work pretty well in reason.....but i feel that i need to be alot better....i really just a rookie,there's guys who have used reason for years and their pretty much veterns of the software,so i feel that that i must constantly work on making my self better at making beats in reason...if i have enough money one day maybe in a year i like to buy a mpc1000 to add it,in to my production with reason 2.5...but anyways, thank you for the headz up i like to hear more on your ideas on mixing kick drums and adding effects......(hopefully it will start a big discussion on kick drums then we can get everybodys take on it.)

[187]

Dvyce? outta curiosity are you saying that a drum sound commin straight from reason won't sound as good as if it came from somewhere else say a cubase vsti?the same drum?
cause i personaly am getting frustrated with reasons sonic quality.
Im not a master at eq'ing mixing.compression and all that but it seems no matter what i do it just doesn't cut it.is there a difference in the sound sources ie cubase/reason cause the better out of the box (minimal editing) the better....just wondering

[demirtas1]

i agree with you about reasons sonic quality. i hear that reasons final output is like -3db,i feel also that sometimes reasons drum sounds or sampled insturments dont have the intencity that i really want, i guess maybe you could do a little bit of effects & eqing in reason then you should export the final beat as a wav,then import it in to cubase or sonar 3 pro edition,(the 2 softwares that i have)i dont have to much knowlege when it comes to cubase or sonar...i definitly want to put more time into learning these 2 softwares so i can use these as my final daw mixers and also learn to use theirs effects......i have reason 2.5 but propellarhead just reaised ver 3.0 which i think they solved the audio quality issue i think in the new version theres new ways to make the sound ,audio,samples sound more rich and full......if you ask me reason is the most perfect software i could ask for,except for the sometimes weak audio ,the overall sonic sound of reason,sometimes pisses me off,because i want to be able to come as close as i can with my overall beat making sound to what dre,kanye and timberland do,audio wise,i really want to have the same audio strength fullness and powerful sounding songs as the pros do,of cource if i had the money or equipment that these dope producers,beatrmakers had i would be very happy,but untill then all i have is my reason 2.5,so what i need to do is figure out a way for me to get the best sound out of reason i can get,im open to any ideas or suggestions that people might have on me making the best sounding beats that reasons audio engine can handel,if anybody can help me with this please feel free to let me know,cuase im open to any new ideas to better my reason 2.5 experiance...i want to get the best overall sound that i can get in reason.........in reason 3.0 they incorperated a new device its the new mastering suite in Reason 3.0.....hears the info on this device.......The MClass Equalizer-Reason is now officially one louder. Turn up your tracks to 11 with MClass.
Want big, tight, loud sounding tracks? Need extra stereo width, increased clarity, punchier bass? Say hello to MClass, the new mastering suite in Reason 3.0. MClass brings you four separate pro level mastering units designed to add power, presence and an overall professional feel to your Reason mixes. Load up the MClass tools as a complete mastering suite in the Combinator for finalizing whole mixes, or use the units separately. Apart from being logical and user-friendly, the MClass tools sound good. Audiophile good. These units can compete with the finest mastering tools out there, software or hardware....The MClass Equalizer is a 4-band, professional level mastering EQ with low and high shelving bands, two peak filters and a low cut switch. The MClass Equalizer lets you make subtle or drastic frequency adjustments to your Reason mixes, and make them sound a touch more final: clean up that muddy bottom end, add shimmer to your cymbals, bring out the vocals. With its transparent sound and precise sound sculpting features, the MClass Equalizer is a tool you can trust.No mastering suite is complete without a tool for controlling the stereo image. The MClass Stereo Imager splits the incoming audio into low and high frequency bands, and lets you adjust each independently. Increasing the width for the high band while making the low band slightly more mono gives you wide, open sounding mixes with a tight low end. The Stereo Imager is best suited for treating whole mixes, but feel free to use it on individual sounds and see where it takes you.All mixes will benefit from a touch of mastering compression and the MClass Compressor will do just the trick. Designed to add punch and definition to your Reason tracks, this single-band compressor sounds simply amazing. The MClass Compressor features a sidechain input for advanced compression tricks such as ducking or de-essing, a soft-knee mode for smooth, musical compression and CV out for dynamically controlling other Reason devices.Every decibel counts! The MClass Maximizer is an advanced tool designed to maximize the volume of your Reason tracks, without crushing them or introducing other unwanted artifacts. The Maximizer features a Limiter section - with switchable look-ahead, for distortion- free brickwall limiting - and a Soft Clip section which gently rounds off the edges. Set your input gain and adjust the attack, release and clip amount settings for a loud, proud sound.......since i wont be buying ver 3.0,it pisses me off that i dont have the MClass Mastering Suite in reason 2.5,because i think they made that specifically to give reason a more sonically powerfull sound,i heared it gives your kick drum a more powerful sound,pretty much this is what i have been waiting for,this device could give my kick drums,snares and string insturmentals the overall sound that i need.......to read for your self go to ....www.propellerheads.se and look for the new version 3.0.i hope to hear everybodys ideas on what i can do

[dvyce]

Originally posted by 187
Dvyce? outta curiosity are you saying that a drum sound commin straight from reason won't sound as good as if it came from somewhere else say a cubase vsti?the same drum?
cause i personaly am getting frustrated with reasons sonic quality.
Im not a master at eq'ing mixing.compression and all that but it seems no matter what i do it just doesn't cut it.is there a difference in the sound sources ie cubase/reason cause the better out of the box (minimal editing) the better....just wondering

I was not referring to the sound quality of Reason itself (that is a topic for another thread .)

Let me try to explain a little better...

For the purposes of this post, let's forget about the actual sound quality of the different programs and assume they are all equally good (since that part of it doesn't matter for my explanation.)

The issue is how the programs are used

From what I can tell, you are using Reason as your "all-in-one" product where you have their drum sounds and synth sounds any you sequence and mix in reason.

Now think of another situation where you are using Cubase, for example (or ProTools or Logic or whatever.) Let's say there is a kick drum I want to sample. In a well-equipped studio where pro stuff is being produced (and i am not even talking about a huge recording studio. I am just talking about a working producers studio where he would have his various top quality mics and pre amps and stuff) I would take that kick drum, record through a great preamp, into the top quality Apogee a/d converter into the top quality interface on the system that is all word clocked. Then you would be able to treat the sound with whatever plugins you want or outboard gear (eq's, compressors, etc). Maybe go through you great sounding sony DMX r-100 console and your great monitors in your well treated room and make it sound great (assuming, of course, that you know how to use all the equipment really well to get a great sound.)

Now, in that situation, which is pretty typical of any professional producer, you will be able to gett a better quality sound that a sound just coming out of reason without all that other external stuff.

But if I took the sounds from Reason and exported them and mixed them through a more robust system, they would sound better. It is just like any thing else... any other synth or sound or sample. If you have better tools, you will be able to make it sound better.

That is not to say that you can't make something sound good out of reason... but I can tell you that even if a pro record is made with Reason, there is more that went into the production that just exporting the finall mix and burning it to a CD.

And that is also not to say that simply recording something in Cubase, ProTools, Logic or whatever, will necessarily sound better. But it will give you more options for mixing and getting the sound you want to achieve. This is because you have the options of many many high quality plugins from various manufacturers, and other various more advanced routing options and configurations, etc. But if you just have the sounds in one of these other sequencers without doing the mixing part and knowing how to use the plugins (or outboard gear) well, it will sound the same as if you came straight out of Reason.... straight out of reason, straight out of cubase, straight out of logic... it doesn't matter... you need to do more... and you need the skills and experience to do it.


Don't forget, there are several stages both before and after the "sequencing" part of the production process that are very very very important to the recording quality.


So, this does not mean that to make good good sounding music you need all this stuff. But, when you are comparing your sound to the stuff that you hear on the radio, just keep in mind that there is a lot more going on in their recording and mastering process.

The more you understand the equipment you do have, the better your music will sound.

[RON KINDLER]

PLEASE HEED THIS ADVICE:


"I would take that kick drum, record through a great preamp, into the top quality Apogee a/d converter into the top quality interface on the system that is all word clocked."



On the money!

Ron

[momsbass]

Rewire reason into cubase or whatever sequancer is capable. It will give a bettter sound and much more flexible EQ and Fx usage.

Tip for drum layering - get a high quality Roland 808 kik sample, classic sound very boomy, and mix that in with whichever kick(s) your using. Make sure there on independant channels and tweak pitch, volume, EQ to taste. Should give you a bit more punch.

[Dope(Envoy)]

Yeah dude, great tip is too just sample sum n then layer a few n maybe add a scream, then get the volumes ryt, even single sampled kicks are great, try get from a Timbo, Danjaa,Scott Storch track, just listen to start of tracks and get it from there.....

Thats wat i do, is great, and helps, i used to have siht drums till i started doing this, has helped lots, sampling drums helps a lot generally

[T Prod.]

Dvyce? outta curiosity are you saying that a drum sound commin straight from reason won't sound as good as if it came from somewhere else say a cubase vsti?the same drum?
cause i personaly am getting frustrated with reasons sonic quality.
Im not a master at eq'ing mixing.compression and all that but it seems no matter what i do it just doesn't cut it.is there a difference in the sound sources ie cubase/reason cause the better out of the box (minimal editing) the better....just wondering

Reason is not the best sounding program.

Kanye, Timbaland, etc.. drums are usually sent through a big analog board, and maybe some good preamp too. Those stuffs can really give a good drive/coloration to those sounds, this is part of the reason why they use them.

But that doesn't mean you can't sound good without those stuff. Learning and PRACTICING EQing, compressing can take you far more than you may think. Adding a little distortion may help too (not clipping).

80 percent of the sound is the experiment and skills of the engineer.