Finding the perfect Kick!

id say take some time and find a good foundation to start with-if you compress, eq, or layer the hell out of a sample that sucks to begin with-itll make your job alot harder.

it also depends on the track-you would be suprised at how much a solo kick that doesnt sound good on its own-fits into a mix and works good. SO id say use a basic kick to start the track, then after the track is built, then look for that kick! Even a good kick after its mixed will need some adjustment.

maybe-but just a thought
 
ezekiel cyrus said:
id say take some time and find a good foundation to start with-if you compress, eq, or layer the hell out of a sample that sucks to begin with-itll make your job alot harder.

it also depends on the track-you would be suprised at how much a solo kick that doesnt sound good on its own-fits into a mix and works good. SO id say use a basic kick to start the track, then after the track is built, then look for that kick! Even a good kick after its mixed will need some adjustment.

maybe-but just a thought

Yes very good, I always seem to worry about how it should sound from the begging of the track, rather then worrying about the arrangement.
tell me something though,
even If I learned to be a pro compressor, is it still possible to get good results from a TL Fat 1 compressor.
 
suggest plugins!

Well,

I put the "PSP saturator" and boost the low-end, then I use "Waves C1-sc" to compress the same frequencies I just boosted (Slow attck to get the punchier sound).

Peace

P.S.
Don't think I got the "quote" thing right, if anyone cares to explain...
 
E-LAB OF SWEDEN

FUTURE HOUSE and Stictly 12inch

wicked collection ;)
 
Jupiter said:
Ive tried layering Kicks, but usually this doesnt work all the time since they cancel eachother out most of the times,
although Ive tried EQ'ing the same kick
pasted on 4 tracks and EQ'ing them at different spectrums this sounds realy good by the way,
but this takes so long and I havnt even started compressing.

One day I'll find that right kick!!

Surely EQing four different instances of the same kick will have the same effect as putting the single kick through four different EQ settings. Feel free to correct me, but I can't see how duplicating a kick multiple times is going to add anything to it (other than gain).
 
j_s said:


Surely EQing four different instances of the same kick will have the same effect as putting the single kick through four different EQ settings. Feel free to correct me, but I can't see how duplicating a kick multiple times is going to add anything to it (other than gain).

fo sure tight post
 
why donb't you use a program like orangator, with which you can mek your own beats, from scratch. OR reaktor 4 from native instruments. it got beatmaking VST's and they are really like having a personal 909 at the tips of you hands.
 
i prefer using waldorf attack. good drumsynth if you didnt know. just use a sine or triangle wave and make it drop in pitch quickly and layer a white noise beater behind,add some distortion. actually just found this. might be some help.

Sound Construction Vol 1: Kick Drums

I've been doing a lot of work putting together sounds from scratch. All sorts of different tones and such. In electronic music, the biggest benefit we have is sound, and I think it's really important to understand how sound comes together. Unfortunately, most tutorials on "making phatter pads" or "making bigger basses/kicks" or whatever never really talk about that. They're basic how-to's that don't really explain the consequencies of things that you do to sound. So, I'm going to start writing up some of my experiments/research and post it for everyone's benefit, explaining what I've been doing and why it does what it does (as best I can). This is the first installment, so any feedback about it would be appreciated. I'll be posting these on my website as well (www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~lackmeye) shortly after I put them on T.nu. Anyway, I hope you all enjoy.

The first sound I'm going to talk about is the kick drum. There's been a lot said about the kick drum, but all the posts on T.nu and the tutorials that they point to don't really talk enough about how they work and why. A lot of this is synthesis of things other people have said, but a lot of it is my own research. So if something sounds familiar to you, it probably is. Anyway, here goes.

The first thing to note about synthesized kick drums is that they are not accurate models of analog bass drums. An analog drum, when struck, vibrates at a single root frequency and has several harmonics. Many early synthesized kicks were like this, and most of them were terrible because the complexity of the harmonics in a "real world" kick is simply rediculously difficult to synthesize. Additionally, those sorts of kicks are very basic and just don't fit with an electronic bassline very well.
Currently, almost every synthesized kick (in trance/hourse) follows the same basic pattern (inspired by the now-legendary TR-909 kick). A sine wave of some sort that starts at a higher frequency and goes to some lower frequency over the course of the kick. Obviously, there are a lot of harmonics and modulations involved, but that's the basic idea. From that basic idea, we can easily construct a simple kick.

Infected Mushroom gave a short, accurate, but highly incomplete tutorial of how to do this using Sound Forge (just about anything will do).

Make yourself a sine wave (around 60 Hz, about half a second long, max amplitude)
Apply a pitch bend from +2 semitones to -2 semitones across the kick (tweaking is fine)
Apply another pitch bend from around +24 semitones to whatever pitch you want, this should be in two stages, a short, steep drop followed (immediately) by a long, shallower drop.
And that's it.

You can get a pretty decent sound like this. However, lets go in to why that works. The shallow pitch bend sets a frame for the kick. You could skip this step, but that subtle, constant drop is just nice to have and a lot easier to do as a separate step.
The important change is the big pitch bend (+24 to -24... ish). The higher the pitch starts, the more "plastic" the beginning of the kick will sounds. Now, having two line segments that create the pitch is very very important. The first segment is a steeper drop. How steep this drop is and how long of a time it takes determines how hard the "oomph" of the kick will be. Shorter times = harder leads. Note that going to too low of a frequency from here will drop the kick into sub frequencies and it will sound terrible on a high powered system. Also, too short of a time will sound pretty weird. Maybe not bad (okay, probably bad), but weird. The second segment determines the end of the kick. Drop this to wherever you want, the shallower the drop, the longer you have before the kick hits sub frequencies. You want to fade the kick out before it drops under 25 Hz or it'll just rattle things and sound terrible.
On a half-second sine wave, the first segment of the pitch bend would probably take around 1/10th of a second while the second segment would take the rest. However, this is *not* a cardinal rule at all. Experiment, experiment, experiment.
Note that you don't only have to have the pitch go down. Many times, I'll have the pitch start lower, bend it up to +20 very fast, then start the regular two-phase descent. This rounds out the lead of the kick more. It doesn't make a great stand-alone sound, but it can be a great sound to add to other kicks (more on that later).
Once you've applied the pitch bend, cut off any of the end of the kick that's falling too far under the sub range, put a fade-out at the end, and save what you have.

Okay, so you created this kick sound, now you load it into your drum machine and put it behind your latest track... and you can barely hear it. Compression up to full... nothing. First off, the amplitude is as high as it goes, the compression isn't going to do anything to a pure sine wave at max amplitude. But that's not what's hurting you. Pure sine waves are pretty weak sounds. Especially at low frequencies. You need harmonics in the kick to pull over the sound. How do you get these? Layering.

How do I layer kicks together?

If you laughed at this question, you don't know how to do it, because it's really not so simple. The first thing that you're going to need is several kicks. Play with different pitch bends, different pitched inital sine waves (try one at 80, or even 100 Hz), etc. Build yourself a library of 10 or so kicks to play with.
There are two ways to put sounds together, a crossfade, or a straight add (mix). The two have very different applications here, so I'll cover them separately.

You'll probably use a mix to add together most of your kicks. You'll almost definately use it for the first two layers, so let's talk about these first. When adding together a pair of kicks, you may or may not want to add all of both of them together. For example, you may love the beginning of one kick but hate the tail, but the other one you pretty well like (for example, adding the lead of a high-pitched kick to all of a low pitched kick to give it more power at the head end). It's important to know what part of the kick you want. When adding together two kicks, DO NOT ADD THEM AT FULL VOLUME. You'll want to reduce the volume of each of the kicks where you're doing the mix by around 9 dB (the relative amount that you lower them by may depend if you want more or less of one kick). Experiment with what bits you add and how.

Crossfading is another useful way of working with kicks. There are many ways to do it, but I usually use it to process a single sound. For example, I have a kick sound that starts nice and powerful, but that nice powerful lead turns into nasty harmonics at the end. How do you solve this? Crossfading.
Open two copies of the kick in question. On one copy, apply an EQ to remove those nasty harmonics (might as well just silence everything over 1000Hz... or maybe even 500Hz, use your discretion). You've probably demolished the lead in, but left yourself with a decent tail-end. On the original sound, find the part of the lead in that you want, then find what part of the tail-end you want on the processed sound. There should be a segment around 1/10 of a second long on both parts that sounds alright. You'll want to mark the beginning and end of this exactly on both waves. Crossfade in ONLY THAT PART from the processed wave. You'll end up with the kick and tail of the original wave, but a center part that crossfades. Now just slice off the end of the original wave and replace it with the end of the processed wave. Now you've killed the nasty harmonic in the tail without taking the power out of the lead.
You can use crossfading like this on any pair of kicks, but it gets difficult to do on other kicks. Just make sure that the section of the two kicks that you crossfade is EXACTLY THE SAME LEGNTH and try it. You can get some interesting results. The theory is always the same though, leave the start of one kick the same, crossfade in the middle, leave the end of the other kick the same.

You'll have to put together a lot of layers to get a really good kick. However, no matter how thin something sounds, every time you layer things together, save the result (provided it isn't terrible, of course). You can use these. I have dozens of samples sorted as deep, medium, high, heavy, dirty, plastic, etc... I just number them in ascending order so that I know the higher numbers tend to be the richer sounds. Find a way to organize, and toy with things. You can get some really good sounds pretty quickly, and they get better all the time.

Now, here's some additional notes:
Compression: Compression can frequently have the opposite effect that you intend when applied to kicks. Usually the deep part of the kick is already at a high amplitude, and using compression just brings out harmonics that you don't want. However, since the harmonics and modulations created by layering are what power the lead of a kick, compressing the lead can sometimes help add power to the kick.
EQ: EQ is great when used properly. Don't boost the low end, don't boost the low end, don't boost the low end. I'm serious, don't. You'll just make things clip and sound like crap. When EQing a bass, you want to EQ the high end (anything over about 300 Hz) to remove unwanted harmonics. Sometimes you'll run in to the notorious "ringer" harmonic. It tends to settle in around the second harmonic (about 150 Hz at 60 Hz). A parametric EQ can do wonders to soften or remove that and many other unwanted sounds. EQ cuts are always better than EQ boosts. Always. A cut in one place is a relative boost everywhere else, pretty good deal, right? If you want the low end to be higher, try cutting the 250 Hz range a bit. Rememeber though that sub frequencies should be used in moderation. A lot of sub may sound great on your small moniters, but will ALWAYS sound terrible on a 4000W club PA. Don't be tempted to add sub just because. It's bad bad bad.
Distortion: Distortion can really help kicks. Too much will make them very dirty (jungle/dnb like), though maybe that's what you want. Work with it, see what happens.
Reverb: A good kick probably won't need extra reverb while you're creating it. If you need the tone to be longer, start with a longer sine wave. As the pitch drops under 30 Hz, it'll appear to fade out with a sort of reverb anyway. As you layer, the harmonics will also start to fade out in a more reverb like way as well. Shortcutting using reverb is more likely to simply muddy up the kick, which defeats the purpose of all this layering to create harder, thicker kicks.
Basses: The hardest thing to do is put together a kick drum and a bass synth. If your kick sounds great until you put it with the bass, it's probably because the bass is too thick and it's drowning out your kick. Try cutting back some of the very low frequencies on the bassline, or try using a different bass entirely. If a bass is too thick, your kick will get drowned out no matter how hard it punches. Boosting the low end of the kick will not solve this. Don't fall into that trap (I've done it... you can spend weeks messing with a kick when it's not even the problem if you do this).
Sampling: Feel free to sample kicks that are already around, but there is an advantage to making your own. Different kicks play with different basses in different ways. When you know how to make your own kicks, you're more likely to understand what you need in the kick to work well with a bass synth, so knowing how to do it is a very useful skill that will dazzle your friends (and the ladies).
 
Most sample Cd's are rubbish. Even (or should I rather say: Especially) the so-called pro-range.

After years of collecting samples I finally got a few kicks together that have that pure clear sound. I had to run them through cool-edit's noise-reduction filter to get rid of unwanted hissing, you know the one where you can remove noise from a specified spectral range. And sometimes I had to copy and paste the initial transient from the non-processed version over the processed version to keep it tight.

Now I pretty much use those kicks, running through a pitch envelope (to get my timing perfect on the decay) and then It goes through some transient enhancing tool or a bass maximizer (I hardly ever use compression anymore)

The irony of it all, is that I've come to a point in my life where I don't really want that crisp-clear vanilla sound anymore. I may as well run a noisy sample through a gauntled of high pitched fm controlled madness as a clean sample, since the crunchy relics tend to blanket out the hiss anyway.
 
Can't somebody just make like 20 track-ready kicks? I mean, how hard can it be? I like tweaking sounds and all, but I think it's ridiculous that you can't just get a pro-sounding kick drum to put in your track. To me, it takes too much away from the writing process if you are having to struggle to get something as simple as your kick sounding right.

I've written some pretty good songs, but they all suck because I'm not interested enough in programming/engineering to make the actual sounds sound good. If you play a guitar, you don't have to sit there and tweak the damn guitar every time you want to write a song (other than tuning).
 
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to me making new sounds is the biggest part of the 'writing process'. actual sequencing of a song i find the easy/quick part.but making the sounds different(synthsis) than last time is the tricky bit which inthe end shapes the tunes atmoshpere.i am talking electronic music here.id much rather spend time crafting my own sounds for each tuen than using the same old over and over. being able to get a pro kick just like that would take away the creativity and learnign that it takes to get the perfect kick i feel.
i say just make one on a drumsynth then you can make it fit your song,and you can tweek easily if not right. although layering kicks is good to,you need about 3 sub,pop,beater.
 
You can't just make 20 kicks and put them out there for a few reasons.

a) What is a perfect kick to you isn't a perfect kick to me. A buddy of mine and myself swap out samples and kits we've refined all the time, and even between us we'll go through phases. He might want a big-booming driving kick, and I might want a sharper more nimble kick.

b) Everybody out there isn't my friend. Why should I just give away sounds? And even if I made a sample CD that people paid for, how would people know to try out my CD without paying for it first? There's no way to verify how good a CD is before you have it.

c) As JC kind of put it. Your sounds are part of your identity as a muso. If you just want premade stuff to play with do what the other lamers do and get e-Jay.

d) Going through the process of making/editing sounds teaches you to really hear properly.
 
Guy Incognito said:
If you just want premade stuff to play with do what the other lamers do and get e-Jay.
So I, along with all the classical, jazz, rock, samba, salsa, and country writers are lamers? Or are you going to backpeddle now?

d) Going through the process of making/editing sounds teaches you to really hear properly.
So I, and every classical, jazz, rock, samba, salsa, and country writer can't hear properly? Or are you going to backpeddle now?
 
I mean seriously, that was one of the dumbest posts I have ever read.
 
I think the answer on this may actually be yes.

Classical, jazz, rock, samba, salsa, and country writers who use dance oriented kick drum samples probably are lamers.

If you want recorded acoustic kits there are are plenty of those, but that's not what we're talking about.
 
As for establishing your status as a lamer...

sonic::bionic said:
I've written some pretty good songs, but they all suck because I'm not interested enough in programming/engineering to make the actual sounds sound good. If you play a guitar, you don't have to sit there and tweak the damn guitar every time you want to write a song (other than tuning).

You've written some pretty good songs but they suck because you're not interested enough in sound engineering to make them sound good?

Sounds like lame behaviour to me.

And lets just set the record straight. When you're recording guitar takes you do have to sit there and tweak it every time, otherwise it sounds like a crappy out of tune guitar, probably owned by a lame guitar player.
 
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With all these drum sounds I am wondering how you all can find one that fits a particular track?

Of course I'm fairly new to this so my ears probably not so in tuned.
Do the pros just use similar drum sounds? Cause to me a lot of kicks sound the same. I can see the difference in say a Rock song and a Rap song though. But a lot of rap seem to have similar kicks to me.
 
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