Does this list cover all the principles of Piano Music Theory?

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FutureProducer6000

New member
I was told that if I practice in all of these areas, I will no doubt become a stronger musician.

Scales, Number System, Hanon Finger Exercises, Intervals, Rhythem

Triads, Extended Chords, Inversions, Primaries vs. secondarys, Voicing

Diatonic Chords, Circle of 5ths, Stepwise motion patterns, Advanced Progressions, Transposing to all 12 keys

Finding Keys, Determining Melody, Determing bass pattern, Determine right chords, Determine Nuances

Basic Ear training, pattern recognititon, circular pattern substitutions, Chordal Variations / Enhancements, Experimentation
 
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FutureProducer6000 said:
I was told that if I practice in all of these areas, I will no doubt become a stronger musician.
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Nope, you'll just have the technical facility to just play scales and exercises. That ain't music-that's mechanics. You need to LEARN SONGS and TRANSCRIBE SONGS.


The mechanics are only there to help you play MUSIC convincingly and effortlessly. Most of what you listed is a 15 minute warmup, the theoretical concepts are pretty much first and second semester community college theory class. Its all important stuff to know, but, if you aren't learning songs, you're wasting time and slowing your growth. Learning and practicing songs is how you learn, practice and internalize the theory and mechanics. I want to practice arpeggios? Easy-practice playing arpeggios to the changes of a song. I want to ear train intervals? Easy-practice songs that use those intervals in the main melody.


SONGS, GAWDDAMNIT, SONGS!!!!!

I get tired of all these goofy niggas trying to divorce the "music" from "music theory". Niggas think, "If I just learn a couple chords and scales the I will be on that next level" and their shlt only sounds marginally better than before when they didn't know squat. This is why you have musicians that never learned any theory, can't play a scale to save their life besides the "blues box" but learned musicianship by learning songs.

Here's a gem---no one gives a damn how well you can play scales or how much theory you learned. Scales and chord exercises aren't music. What people in the real world care about how well you can play MUSIC. That's like a football player going through training camp and working out tirelessly everyday-BUT doesn't get a second of actual playing time on the field. You learn all those concepts (technique and theory) by learning songs. Get a book of songs, some recordings of tunes you like, and get crackin'.
 
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Thanks for the reply. Its funny, I just came to that very same realization by myself 10 minutes ago. Like I play all these technical exercises all day, then my uncle comes in the room who doesnt know SQUAT about theory and only plays by ear, plays a lick and I immediately sit down and start mimicking it perfectly. The thing is though. Without my study, It would have been harder for me to do that. I think you are right that I should practice MUSIC along with Music Theory and not Music theory alone, but I can say confidently just studying theory also goes a long way. So, again, to each his own. But thanks for the advice.
 
I agree with pumpthrust here

However, I would not say ignore the theory but tailor your practice sessions so that you are adding tougher material to play

- the exercises are the key to being able to play pieces
- exercises on their own are wasted if they are not used to unlock how to play a particular piece
- any teacher worth their money will be devising a learning structure for you that includes new material and exercises that unlock that material
- personally I teach a lot of technical work to begin because if the fingers can't move then nothing else matters
-- I start with right hand finger exercises (pima patterns across 6 strings) as well as left hand fingering exercises for guitar (what is called the block by various guitarists and theorists, but what is ultimately a fully closed out scale segment - 4 frets all six strings as 1234, 1324, 1342, 1423, 1432, etc. all the way to 4321)
- when students can play these then we are ready to consider chords and specific scales and songs
- in fact after the initial work we move to a collection of some 60 chord progressions that they learn to finger pick and strum
-- we can identify most of these chord progressions as songs from the pop charts over the last 60 years or so, so they are making ground whilst learning new techniques
- eventually I have my students learn whole pieces from chord work to all of the solos and licks played throughout, as well as how to improvise
- chord melody work is kept for my advanced students (none of those at the moment - problem of moving house every few years)
 
Pumpthrust said:
Nope, you'll just have the technical facility to just play scales and exercises. That ain't music-that's mechanics. You need to LEARN SONGS and TRANSCRIBE SONGS.


The mechanics are only there to help you play MUSIC convincingly and effortlessly. Most of what you listed is a 15 minute warmup, the theoretical concepts are pretty much first and second semester community college theory class. Its all important stuff to know, but, if you aren't learning songs, you're wasting time and slowing your growth. Learning and practicing songs is how you learn, practice and internalize the theory and mechanics. I want to practice arpeggios? Easy-practice playing arpeggios to the changes of a song. I want to ear train intervals? Easy-practice songs that use those intervals in the main melody.


SONGS, GAWDDAMNIT, SONGS!!!!!

I get tired of all these goofy niggas trying to divorce the "music" from "music theory". Niggas think, "If I just learn a couple chords and scales the I will be on that next level" and their shlt only sounds marginally better than before when they didn't know squat. This is why you have musicians that never learned any theory, can't play a scale to save their life besides the "blues box" but learned musicianship by learning songs.

Here's a gem---no one gives a damn how well you can play scales or how much theory you learned. Scales and chord exercises aren't music. What people in the real world care about how well you can play MUSIC. That's like a football player going through training camp and working out tirelessly everyday-BUT doesn't get a second of actual playing time on the field. You learn all those concepts (technique and theory) by learning songs. Get a book of songs, some recordings of tunes you like, and get crackin'.
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So true, but . . .
Its not just goofy producers who do this.
It's very common for musicians who talk to want to be musicians to talk about scales and chords.
"Practice your scales and chords they say."
It wasn't until I got a teacher that I realized that you learn music through playing tunes. My teacher told me to get a few piano books to start with,
and all the discussions of scales and chords are covered in connection with a tune.
I think a lot of musicians forget that they learned that stuff long ago and they now focus on chords and scales to master their craft, not learn how to play.
 
Basically, spend some time learning those exercises. Then spend about a larger amount of time learning real songs.

Also, learn songs different methods. I learned piano the classical way (get sheet music, follow it exactly and practice every day for a few weeks until you can play the piece perfectly. You can learn jazzy pieces this way, but you won't be a jazz musician)

I am now trying to perfect the popular/jazz way (get chords, mess about and do things by ear, be prepared to sight read pieces and play along with other musicians)

On a separate but related note, I was thinking about all the aspects of music that you pretty much have to do intuitively. One is knowing which dynamics and expressions (feeling the music) to add to a piece of music when you are not told. Having played piano for 10 years, I can do this fairly decently now through experience

Others include: being able to compose that awesome hook, creating music that has a good groove, constructing a good solo and being able to EQ well.

There are exercises I can do to help me learn these things, but mostly, I just have to practice them a lot and not get into bad habits. It's not knowledge, it's experience.
 
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If all someone wants to do is be able to put together a song by mousing in their notes on a DAW piano roll, how is just theory not enough? Obviously you need an ear for it to apply that theory and make sure it sounds good..which piano can teach you. But is it really that necessary to know and practice songs on the piano for a producer that will never actually be playing the piano?

Im just speaking generally here, I myself, want to learn piano and songs. But I wouldn't say you need to know it if your just mousing shit in.. Obviously it will make you better because thats what practice does..but if you are just doing it slow in your DAW, how necessary is it to know songs?
 
Scales and chords is good. I consider myself a decent enough keyboard player but most of what you listed there I have never heard about.
Play, play and then play some. Try to transpose any song you play to any of the 12 keys (start off with 2-3 keys like C, G and D and expand from there).
And let your fingers move. For hours and hours. Your timing will grow and so will your speed. Learn chord inversions and also play on more keys than just the 3 basic ones in the chords. The 2 is a sureshot for making the chord more interesting (In the C chord (C-E-G) Move your finger to the D now and then, thereby playing (C-D-G). Actually u can use almost any key in the chord scale for interesting variations of chords.

Most of all, play a lot. While trying to understand theory.
 
Yumid said:
If all someone wants to do is be able to put together a song by mousing in their notes on a DAW piano roll, how is just theory not enough? Obviously you need an ear for it to apply that theory and make sure it sounds good..which piano can teach you. But is it really that necessary to know and practice songs on the piano for a producer that will never actually be playing the piano?

Im just speaking generally here, I myself, want to learn piano and songs. But I wouldn't say you need to know it if your just mousing shit in.. Obviously it will make you better because thats what practice does..but if you are just doing it slow in your DAW, how necessary is it to know songs?
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Songs teach you how those theoretical concepts work in actual music, and since music is what we are trying to make, how would it not be beneficial to learn songs? Learning and transcribing songs are how you develop the "ear" for how chords and scales work in practice. Songs introduce you to certain musical circumstances and concepts that you will never experience or understand otherwise, like voice-leading, for instance.

This goes back to my main point about folks trying to divorce "music" from music theory, as if chords and scales alone will somehow open their ears and teach them everything they need to know to make music. This is why you have people on here asking how to use scales and chords. Anyone who has taken the time to learn tunes doesn't need to ask this type of question because they've done the work understanding how chords and scales function in real music BY PLAYING MUSIC.
 
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Pumpthrust said:
Songs teach you how those theoretical concepts work in actual music, and since music is what we are trying to make, how would it not be beneficial to learn songs? Learning and transcribing songs are how you develop the "ear" for how chords and scales work in practice. Songs introduce you to certain musical circumstances and concepts that you will never experience or understand otherwise, like voice-leading, for instance.

This goes back to my main point about folks trying to divorce "music" from music theory, as if chords and scales alone will somehow open their ears and teach them everything they need to know to make music. This is why you have people on here asking how to use scales and chords. Anyone who has taken the time to learn tunes doesn't need to ask this type of question because they've done the work understanding how chords and scales function in real music BY PLAYING MUSIC.
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Music theory teaches nothing about how to make and put together music, i understand that. I just didnt really think about it until now I guess.. But thats where Song Writing Theory comes in haha. Thinking back to my music theory lessons, there really isn't anything about how to put it all together for a song..which learning songs can do.. But I also did an in-depth Song Writing Theory Explained series after the Music Theory explained series which REALLY REALLY REALLY helped put everything into perspective. I can understand though now what you mean..for me though whenever I think about music theory I always box in Song Writing theory with it as a package, but I guess some people don't look at it like that. The song writing theory actually was the only productive series for producing now that I am thinking about them separately. The music theory explained series was just a pre-requisite for the Song Writing Theory Explained course.

Not trying to contradict, or say I'm right. Just putting what I'm assuming right now. Which is all assumption, you guys are the ones with experience. But now that its been brought up and reminded me, it was defiantly the Song Writing Theory explained series that helped with production..You just needed the music theory explained series to understand the song writing explained.
 
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You both have valid points IMO.
Look at a guy like AVICII that hardly could play piano at all when he made LEVELs. He is ultrafast at drawing in the piano roll.
Somehow he has to apply theory to make such songs as they follow the standard chord formulas of pop music of today.
Did he do it by ear? By copying chords he heard? I dont know.

I do know that I have a friend that cant play piano at all. Seeing him draw notes in one by one and dragging them up and down listening for the right place is - for me - painful. But his results are great. Although he could have saved sooo much time by actually knowing where that single note should be drawn from a theory point of view. Then again - it would take him time to learn that.
He makes decent remixes that is out there spinning on Spotify in the tens of thousands.
It is easy to think and understand that he would have been much faster if he knew theory and could play decently. But by the time that takes (learn piano/theory) he could be a devil with the pianoroll and mouse too.
Best of both worlds is the target I guess. Learn to paly the instrument, learn to produce, learn theory and learn the tools of the genre you want to write in.
Takes time though. For sure.

Best of luck.
 
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Heyclown said:
You both have valid points IMO.
Look at a guy like AVICII that hardly could play piano at all when he made LEVELs. He is ultrafast at drawing in the piano roll.
Somehow he has to apply theory to make such songs as they follow the standard chord formulas of pop music of today.
Did he do it by ear? By copying chords he heard? I dont know.

I do know that I have a friend that cant play piano at all. Seeing him draw notes in one by one and dragging them up and down listening for the right place is - for me - painful. But his results are great. Although he could have saved sooo much time by actually knowing where that single note should be drawn from a theory point of view. Then again - it would take him time to learn that.
He makes decent remixes that is out there spinning on Spotify in the tens of thousands.
It is easy to think and understand that he would have been much faster if he knew theory and could play decently. But by the time that takes (learn piano/theory) he could be a devil with the pianoroll and mouse too.
Best of both worlds is the target I guess. Learn to paly the instrument, learn to produce, learn theory and learn the tools of the genre you want to write in.
Takes time though. For sure.

Best of luck.
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The last half of this sounded like you were describing me haha. For the longest time I would simply move each note of the chord up and down and piano roll until it sounded right. I got great results(for the first little bit of the song) and the time went by crazy fast. Would come up with beautiful chord progressions but when it came time to have to resolve them or loop them back. I was either stuck there, or stuck at the next part of the song. Plus it took me HOURS to make like 8-16 bars of a single progression.

I could pencil and 'ear' in great little chunks of song, but there is no way I could have ever made a full song like that with smooth transitions, etc.. Now that I understand song writing theory more and different tones in the scales resolving and transitions are easier. But sometimes wish I could go back to just doing it by ear and knowing absolutely nothing about the 'rules'(just sometimes tho haha) because I would come up with way more unique progressions. Its so hard not to follow the rules when you know them. Before I did, it took longer but the end result was usually unique and sounded different. Which is rare with chord progressions. Looking at some of them now, I cant even recognize what some of the chords are. I should post a picture of one just out of curiosity to see what some of those chords I used would be called. See what kind of chaos I came up with.
 
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Yumid said:
The last half of this sounded like you were describing me haha. For the longest time I would simply move each note of the chord up and down and piano roll until it sounded right. I got great results(for the first little bit of the song) and the time went by crazy fast. Would come up with beautiful chord progressions but when it came time to have to resolve them or loop them back. I was either stuck there, or stuck at the next part of the song. Plus it took me HOURS to make like 8-16 bars of a single progression.

I could pencil and 'ear' in great little chunks of song, but there is no way I could have ever made a full song like that with smooth transitions, etc.. Now that I understand song writing theory more and different tones in the scales resolving and transitions are easier. But sometimes wish I could go back to just doing it by ear and knowing absolutely nothing about the 'rules'(just sometimes tho haha) because I would come up with way more unique progressions. Its so hard not to follow the rules when you know them. Before I did, it took longer but the end result was usually unique and sounded different. Which is rare with chord progressions. Looking at some of them now, I cant even recognize what some of the chords are. I should post a picture of one just out of curiosity to see what some of those chords I used would be called. See what kind of chaos I came up with.
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What are these "rules" you're talking about?
 
Yumid said:
...because I would come up with way more unique progressions. Its so hard not to follow the rules when you know them.
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Dont trust unique progressions not anchored in theory too heavy. I have a friend that HAS to enter a STRANGE chord in EVERY song he make. And he complains why he does not get the attention he thinks his songs deserve. To me they are unpredictably in a bad way. That chord breaks so wild that I'm falling off the wagon. Like a sharp and wild turn you NEVER expected. Break the mold a little for sure. Just dont pulverize it without it sounding good. I really havent heard great NEW chord progressions made out from guys that do not know theory or how to play an instument. If they knew the circle of fifths...

Listen to the pop hits of the last 50 years. More than half of them uses the same 4 chords. The same 4! Maybe in a diff progression and a diff key but it still are the "same" chords. There is a reason for that. Predictability. Sure you can make unpredictable songs. Don't just use the equation unpredictable=great.
There are also hundreds, even thousands of great predictable songs out there that uses the common 4 chords I-IV-V-VI one way or another. Hell there are even producers/writers out there that has cashed in millions of USD writing 4 chord only songs. Ryan Tedder is one. Fantastic songs in my book. Same 4 predictable chords from start to finish.
I.E. Halo, Bleeding Love, Apologize et al

If you knew theory and put up a 4 chord progression through your song you would not so easy hit the wall halfway through your song. Try that till you can produce/write full songs.

A friend of me has this mantra saying that he prays to newcomers: "Finish songs you start on. Dont use months on them, just finish them at the skill level you are at, then file them as done. For every song you make this way you will have learned a lot and you have another complete song under your belt and you did not use 6 months on one song."

It's good to know theory. Rules. Allways imo.
 
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Pumpthrust said:
What are these "rules" you're talking about?
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Just forget I used the word 'rules' then and change it to guidelines..

Heyclown said:
Dont trust unique progressions not anchored in theory too heavy. I have a friend that HAS to enter a STRANGE chord in EVERY song he make. And he complains why he does not get the attention he thinks his songs deserve. To me they are unpredictably in a bad way. That chord breaks so wild that I'm falling off the wagon. Like a sharp and wild turn you NEVER expected. Break the mold a little for sure. Just dont pulverize it without it sounding good. I really havent heard great NEW chord progressions made out from guys that do not know theory or how to play an instument. If they knew the circle of fifths...

Listen to the pop hits of the last 50 years. More than half of them uses the same 4 chords. The same 4! Maybe in a diff progression and a diff key but it still are the "same" chords. There is a reason for that. Predictability. Sure you can make unpredictable songs. Don't just use the equation unpredictable=great.
There are also hundreds, even thousands of great predictable songs out there that uses the common 4 chords I-IV-V-VI one way or another. Hell there are even producers/writers out there that has cashed in millions of USD writing 4 chord only songs. Ryan Tedder is one. Fantastic songs in my book. Same 4 predictable chords from start to finish.
I.E. Halo, Bleeding Love, Apologize et al

If you knew theory and put up a 4 chord progression through your song you would not so easy hit the wall halfway through your song. Try that till you can produce/write full songs.

A friend of me has this mantra saying that he prays to newcomers: "Finish songs you start on. Dont use months on them, just finish them at the skill level you are at, then file them as done. For every song you make this way you will have learned a lot and you have another complete song under your belt and you did not use 6 months on one song."

It's good to know theory. Rules. Allways imo.
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you misunderstood what I said I think. I was explaining how i USED to do it. I was contrasting to the two different scenarios in my post. The chord progressions I used to make weren't your standard 4-8 bar chord progressions.. Id just go till they felt resolved in my head..Some would be 20 bars without even looping back haha. I was literally free styling everything. Took forever. And it wasn't productive.
 
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Yumid said:
Just forget I used the word 'rules' then and change it to guidelines..



you misunderstood what I said I think. I was explaining how i USED to do it. I was contrasting to the two different scenarios in my post. The chord progressions I used to make weren't your standard 4-8 bar chord progressions.. Id just go till they felt resolved in my head..Some would be 20 bars without even looping back haha. I was literally free styling everything. Took forever. And it wasn't productive.
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You can still freestyle, what says you can't, theory?
 
Pumpthrust said:
You can still freestyle, what says you can't, theory?
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are you kidding me man? Quit twisting my words around to make it seem like I'm trying to say there is only one way to write music because you know its not what I mean, and you know exactly what I mean.
 
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Yumid said:
are you kidding me man? Quit twisting my words around to make it seem like I'm trying to say there is only one way to write music because you know its not what I mean, and you know exactly what I mean.
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I don't know what you mean because I am not you. I was taking what you posted completely at face value.
 
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