Circle of Fifths HELP!!!

[TDOT]

Still trying to undestand the Circle of Fifths Patterns.
Because the first way I learned is completely different then what I'm reading today.
Basicly what I'm learning now is that you have your chart for your cycle, and you move either counter clock wise or clockwise to the next chord, that seems to basic, if I have the chart, you'd have it figured out at any time. Or is there really all there is to it.

The way I originaly learned is that from the chart you don't move neccesarily move either clock or counter clock wise but you actually move to certain chords based on this numbered chart he provided. And the chart would tell you based on the number (or chord) you're at which numbers (or chords) you can then move to.

For example:
C Major Cycle looks like this

C = 1
G = 5
D = 2
A = 6
E = 3
B= 7

1 go to any chord
2 go to 4,5,7
3 go to 2,4,6
4 go to 1,3,5,7
5 go to 1
6 go to 2,4,5,1
7 go to 1,3

if you'd move the wheel then
G would now = 1
D = 5
A = 2

and so on,

I know this seems really confusing,
I wish I knew how to upload the chart so you guys could see.
Bandcoach might be able to help out if he understands the point I was trying to make. I read it over and it is confusing.

[mwandishi]

So what's your question?

[bandcoach]

I get what you are saying and then some.

However, I'm going to rephrase it all in Roman Numeral notation so that the subtleties are not lost in the presentation.....

Scale Tone:	1	2	3	4	5	6	7
Key/Chord:	I	ii	iii	IV	V	vi	viib5
Ab	Ab	Bbm	Cm	Db	Eb	Fm	G dim
A	A	Bm	C#m	D	E	F#m	G# dim
A#	A#	B#m	C##m	D#	E#	F##m	G## dim
Bb	Bb	Cm	Dm	Eb	F	Gm	A dim
B	B	C#m	D#m	E	F#	G#m	A# dim
Cb	Cb	Dbm	Ebm	Fb	Gb	Abm	Bb dim
C	C	Dm	Em	F	G	Am	B dim
C#	C#	D#m	E#m	F#	G#	A#m	B# dim
Db	Db	Ebm	Fm	Gb	Ab	Bbm	C dim
D	D	Em	F#m	G	A	Bm	C# dim
D#	D#	E#m	F#m	G#	A#	B#m	C## dim
Eb	Eb	Fm	Gm	Ab	Bb	Cm	D dim
E	E	F#m	G#m	A	B	C#m	D# dim
F	F	Gm	Am	Bb	C	Dm	E dim
F#	F#	G#m	A#m	B	C#	D#m	E## dim
Gb	Gb	Abm	Bbm	Cb	Db	Ebm	F dim
G	G	Am	Bm	C	D	Em	F# dim
G#	G#	A#m	B#m	C#	D#	E#m	F## dim

E^## = F^#
A^## = B
E^# = F
B^# = C
C^b = B
F^b = E

Chord	Goes to
I	any chord
ii	IV,V,viib5
iii	ii,IV,vi
IV	I,iii,V,viib5
V	I,vi,IV
vi	ii,IV,V,I
viib5	I,iii

[TDOT]

Thanks bandcoach, that's exactly what I'm talking about and the way that I learned. To have learned it that way and now someones's teaching me that "No" for the cycle you can only move clockwise or counter clock wise around the chart.

I'm just getting contradicting info, that's why I'm so stuck on this, but I think it's important in the type of music i'm producing as well so tryna crack down on it.

---------- Post added at 01:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 PM ----------

I just compared the info you provided with my Chart and it makes complete sense.

I wanna post something I was reading and maybe you can explain this, the way he's explaining it is so basic, he's telling you yo move around the chart?

IMPORTANT: We choose to follow the circle of fifths pattern going counter clockwise. That is, C –> F –> Bb, etc. If you’re not already familiar with the circle of fifths pattern, don’t worry … you can still practice these exercises as I will literally s-p-e-l-l out each chord below. (If you’ve never heard of the circle of fifths pattern, click here for a quick lesson on it).
Circle of Fifths Simply put, the circle of fifths chart organizes major and minor scales according to how many sharps or flats each scale contains.

C major scaleC – D – E – F – G – A – B – C F major scaleF – G – A – Bb – C – D – E – F They have seven notes in common. The only note they differ by is the B / Bb. Notice on the chart above where C major and F major appear. If you observed that they appear right next to each other, then you are on the right track! In other words, as you move from key to key, there will only be a one-note difference. So to make sure everyone understands this: C major and F major have the same notes except for one difference: F major has a Bb instead of B. F major and Bb major have the same notes except for one difference: Bb major has an Eb instead of E. And that pattern continues all the way down the circle.

[mwandishi]

I think I'm following you. I thought the circle of fifths was clockwise, and the circle of fourths was counterclockwise, and depending how you practice you can just go through the circle or go through each progression or inversion in each root key. Although the i, iv, v may be more common, different genres will employ diff progressions. i dealing with the i, iv, v just for reference purposes and if i try everything else it just confuses me more. I've followed a lot of this lady's videos theory wise (her name is

Karen Cuneo Ramirez

and this video one of four parts), and she's pretty good:


I just following the discussion because I'm learning myself and the more I discuss it the better i grasp it. bandcoach feel free to correct anything i said that was wrong.
p.s. I just got a copy of the Chord Wheel by Jim Fleser, pretty good reference book. i know they have apps like that, but the spinning wheel is a nice resource until u know all this by heart.

[TDOT]

Yes you are completely right about the cirlce of 4ths and 5ths. I just confused about the way you move around the circle from to the other vs the roman numbering of chords (i, iv, v). Think I'm better understanding, I know once I grasp the concept I'll be fine.
If I could sit with bandcoach for even 2 hours I'd have it figured it out, cause I have a million questions, and for every answer I have another question until I pretty much understand everything lol

Thanks for that vid though, watching it right now I'll let you know how it goes thanks again

[mwandishi]

I have a write up ( about 16 pages long) another poster put together that was reviewed by bandcoach. If u want I can send it to u in a pm cause I can't figure out how to post a word doc.

[TDOT]

Yea thanks if you can PM me with that would be nice for sure I'll take a look at it, I'm also watching that video you posted and it's helping so thanks for that too

[mwandishi]

No prob. I'm trying to attach the file somewhere but noting is working. Do u know how to attach a word or pdf file on this site?

[bandcoach]

Thanks bandcoach, that's exactly what I'm talking about and the way that I learned. To have learned it that way and now someones's teaching me that "No" for the cycle you can only move clockwise or counter clock wise around the chart.

I'm just getting contradicting info, that's why I'm so stuck on this, but I think it's important in the type of music i'm producing as well so tryna crack down on it.

The problem we constantly run into in this part of learning theory is that everyone wants you to look at the circle as an unchanging entity with C firmly fixed at the top - this is only true for the key, scale and key signature parts of the equation, which is also present on your chart.

When we start to look at the circle from a chordal point of view it needs to be viewed as a movable concept, where we add a mask to the circle and rotate the mask to show the current relationships.

Like the following:









In the first image everything is centered very nicely and we can see the relationship between each of the chords in C major

In the second image the mask has been rotated to the left so that F is now chord and we can see the relationship between each of the chords in F major

In the third image the mask has been rotated to the right so that G is now chord and we can see the relationship between each of the chords in G major

We would continue to rotate the mask to the left or the right depending on which key we want to use chords in.

We can do similar thing sin the natural minor, harmonic minor and melodic minor only the masks would change for each type.