Basic harmonic and melodic elements of modern pop music?

[Vurki]

Hello

I'm a fledgling producer/composer, trying to learn the basics of creating music that tops the charts today. We all know it's the sounds that are different, rhythms, chords and melodies are pretty much the same. At least chords. And I'd like to learn about that - what should I know when I start to create a modern pop track. Where do I start from?

I started composing many years ago, but at that time I only composed, I didn't play with the sounds. I created interesting harmonies and melodies, but now I'm doing modern pop - I have to base my songs on basic progressions and do the creative stuff with the sounds.

I feel that I've got the rhythms, I can create beats and pace the chords and notes well. But the harmonic and melodic stuff is more challenging for me. So there are some basic progressions that are used often, I know them pretty well. But that's not all - what do you think I should pay attention to? You see, it doesn't seem to work if I just put I V III VII chords to piano roll and start to ponder sounds and instrumentations. How to begin???

What basic rules are there for creating basic harmonies and melodies and fitting them to each others and the sounds and rhythms?

I listen to modern pop a lot and try to figure out what it contains. But is it that I just should listen to it more and you can't help me? Tell me.

Thanks! I appreciate all the help a lot.

 

[bandcoach]

Check out the tutorials in my sig link. There is some stuff on different chord progression, how to construct chords, scales basics, etc. Lots of new stuff about to go up - takes time to prepare any sort of material for learning that is meaningful.

Also get a hold of a few books:

(Complete Idiots Guide to) Composition (for Dummies)
(Complete Idiots Guide to) Songwriting (for Dummies)
(Complete Idiots Guide to) Arranging (for Dummies)
(Complete Idiots Guide to) Music theory (for Dummies)

Read the above as

Complete idiots guide to ????? or
???? for Dummies​

There are several more but read these ones first as you will need to learn the basics before moving on to more difficult terrains.

 

[Vurki]

Thanks. Actually I've got a massive book about basic music theory (it's only in Finnish but a recognized book here). Some of the stuff that it contains is very simple and totally familiar to me since I'm not exactly a beginner in this field, but it contains also new information, and I don't think I would benefit from more books (at this point).

Can't click sign links yet but found that site on your profile. It seems partially useful, I will do some examination

However I'd also like to get some personal advice, not only about theory but about how do you producers/composers work in practice. If you are up to create a basic dance-pop song, do you instantly pick a common chord progression and put it to piano roll, or how do you end up to the progression that you use in the end? How about melodies? What makes you to make the decision?

I almost always start with a simple four-to-the-floor beat. I layer and process some kicks, probably synthesize a snare, add a clap with reverb, and then I start to creatively play with percussions. I use common rhythms but try different kind of samples and effects. Then I see if open hi-hat should come at the same time with kicks or in between them (house music). Then I probably start to play with chords, but I face an obstacle. I may put a basic progression to piano roll and start to browse presets or create my own sound, but the chords always seem to suck. They don't fit with the rhythms and sounds.

How do you do it with harmony and melody?

 

[Emmapeel9]

You don't really need to read any books to make music if that's not your thing. There are a few basic things that can help a lot, but going into depth with songwriting/composition is an option.

There are no rules, but you can make rules for yourself if you want. It can make things easier and can help you professionally too.

It is good to listen to current music if you do want to do this professionally. This is more about trying to make your demo sound up to date and more of an attraction to the people with the money. Production idea's are certainly important to keep up with and also the type of songs that are current. Songwriting/compositional idea's maybe not so much though - you can almost make anything sound contemporary with a good production.

Although it is good to listen to what is current to keep your music sounding up to date, it is also good to listen to all types of music from many era's. Inspiration can come quite easilly from just imagining a 1920's piece to a dance beat for example.

Inspiration for music can also come from: watching film, reading books, travelling...Sitting on the rocks skimming stones into the sea as you hear the light rush of waves fall rythmically into the shore...many things can inspire you to write a piece of music, so it is good to keep your life as rich as you can.

I'll add some more in a bit as I see you have another question.

EP

 

[Vurki]

You don't really need to...
...have another question.

EP

Thanks for great post.

I started this thread cause I thought I could benefit from some advice concerning composing. It still may be useful, all the tips are more than welcomed. However I also understand now that even though the chords etc. are often very similar to each others in modern music, it's still creative in that field too and that I won't find a magical way to create great pop compositions by asking questions here. I think I've misunderstood the commercialism in music production: even if you want to only create a hit, you still gotto be creative. You can't make hit music by just calculating. Of course calculating is a part of that and I have always known that you have to combine it with art, but maybe the significance of creativity is greater than I thought.

I used to do a lot of non-popular stuff like field recordings and electro-jazz. I have lately been wondering where have I lost my inspiration, but you know what - today I really have been thinking this stuff and I managed to start to create an amazing track. So everything's gonna be good

This hasn't got anymore a lot to do with the subject of this thread, but I guess offtopic doesn't matter as long as it's somewhat meaningful!

BUT like I said: just tell me how do you producers use harmonies and melodies in modern pop!

 

[Emmapeel9]

You can come up with idea's by using formula's or with a lot of music theory if you want. Some people work this way and come out with great stuff. Formula's can be found in books or be of a more personal nature. There are a lot of ways to learn music theory if you want to do that.

Another way is to start with the inspiration.This could be a lot of things: A song title, some lyrics, a theme for lyrics, a guitar riff, a cool sound, a percussion sample, some nice chords etc. A common inspiration is a tune that comes into your head whilst you are doing the dishes or whatever. Once you have a starting point you then develop things from there.

This is the way I do things as I get bored easilly and want to keep things moving about. All people are different though and it is good to find what is best for you.

EP

 

[bandcoach]

Thanks. Actually I've got a massive book about basic music theory (it's only in Finnish but a recognized book here). Some of the stuff that it contains is very simple and totally familiar to me since I'm not exactly a beginner in this field, but it contains also new information, and I don't think I would benefit from more books (at this point).

Fair enough. The complete idiots guide to composition, might be a good one to get still, as it will answer several of your questions in a systematic manner.

Can't click sign links yet but found that site on your profile. It seems partially useful, I will do some examination

Thanks, I think.

However I'd also like to get some personal advice, not only about theory but about how do you producers/composers work in practice. If you are up to create a basic dance-pop song, do you instantly pick a common chord progression and put it to piano roll, or how do you end up to the progression that you use in the end? How about melodies? What makes you to make the decision?

Every tune is different for me. Sometimes it is formulaic to the point of ridiculousness - I wrote some bluegrass stuff at the start of last year that was so predictable it was amazing that the melody was actually quite original. I then went one step further with these and rendered both tunes as a waltz as well. Start of My American Barn Dance Suite, which I am still writing.

Sometimes it is find a riff or lick that works, develop it, extend it, vary it, mutate it. Structure might then be added which calls upon chord progressions to be added. melodies could be composed or improvised on the keyboard.

Percussion these days is simply create a basic beat pattern, add some variations patterns, some fill patterns and then use structure to dictate how the patterns are chained together. Occasionally I will write the drum track from scratch crafting every nuance as if I were playing the track in real time (I play kit amongst many other instruments).

Sometimes I sit down and write the entire thing as a score first then render it with sounds. Each task requires different skills and different commitments in time and energy.

I almost always start with a simple four-to-the-floor beat. I layer and process some kicks, probably synthesize a snare, add a clap with reverb, and then I start to creatively play with percussions. I use common rhythms but try different kind of samples and effects. Then I see if open hi-hat should come at the same time with kicks or in between them (house music). Then I probably start to play with chords, but I face an obstacle. I may put a basic progression to piano roll and start to browse presets or create my own sound, but the chords always seem to suck. They don't fit with the rhythms and sounds.

How do you do it with harmony and melody?

Sounds more like a rhythmic issue than a chord issue as such.

Rhythmic invention is a key part of popular song, particular if it is meant to be dance music.

Chordal parts need to have some form of internal rhythm how each chord is played against the backdrop of the rhythm section as well as the external harmonic rhythm (the rate at which chords change).

Learning how to do this takes time. How much no-one can really tell you because it varies for everyone. There was a recent study at one of the Berlin Music academies where the performance students were surveyed as to how much time they had spent practising since they started learning to play. the answers were correlated to their position within the class and there was a not so surprising correlation to hours spent practising.

Top third of the class: 10 000+ hours since they started to learn on average
Middle third: 8 000 hours on average
Bottom third: 4 000 hours on average

i.e. the more time you spend doing something, the better you get at doing it.

See this link for other reasons why it takes time.

 

[Wedges2]

Wow you guys are reallying making this difficult. I never understood why people recommend books. NO ONE needs a book to learn scales and chords. www.musictheory.net The OP seems like he knows chordes already anyway.

To answer the OP there is a lot more creativity to modern music than you think. ANY chord progression can be used, as long as it fits the mood of the song. There are no "set chord progressions" just because some basic ones are used more than others.

 

[Vurki]

Yeh it seems like the methods vary a lot and that there really aren't basic formulas for creating the harmonic and melodic base for a pop song. It would be great to hear about the production and composition process from the top producers, but I'm not wondering that RedOne isn't sharing his feelings with us here...

Bandcoach, could you explain that chord rhythm thing a little? What should I pay attention to when arranging chords to beats?

Let's think about Britney Spears' Hold It Against Me. The chords have been used millions of times before. However the track is still very original, it's the sounds and arrangement. But what makes those chords fit to the track so well? It feels so mysterious to me cause I sometimes feel like I've create as great instruments and sounds as for example there are in that Britney's track, but my composition sucks, even I can't see any significant difference to Britney's track's composition. Maybe it's so intuitive that you can't explain the differences...

Wedges2 you are probably right in many things. I do think that learning from books can help me, extensive knowledge of theory is useful, but it's not the most important thing right now to familiarize with complex theories. Cause as we know, it's not so complex in modern music.

What do you think, how much do the very top producers "calculate" when producing and composing?

E: Bandcoach, in your web site when I open the part "Phasing as a tool for melodic and harmonic creation" terrible noise starts. I guess it's all the music pieces on the site together. What's that and how can I get rid of it?

 

[1oakproduction]

Hey Vurki i think you should re-evaluate your approach to this. Chord progressions that your top producers use are alot of the times borrowed from older songs and spiced up a little to sound more modern and dancy. Like you said It sounds original because of various causes a few of those you mentioned such as arrangement. I suggest you work with artists and develop a sense of how producing an actual song works because things like vocal melody and background harmony and chord voicings have alot to do with making older chords sound refreshing and new also every artists has their own category of charisma to bring to a song so if you make a beat with same chord progressions used in Britney Spears hold it against me depending on who you work with how they harmonize and how they integrate vocal melody with the already instrumental harmony you would get a range of different refreshing original results. Its all down to experimentation and knowledge spend time learning and then experimenting on what you just learned this process is used in school and it works!

 

[Vurki]

Hey Vurki i think you should re-evaluate your approach to this. Chord progressions that your top producers use are alot of the times borrowed from older songs and spiced up a little to sound more modern and dancy. Like you said It sounds original because of various causes a few of those you mentioned such as arrangement. I suggest you work with artists and develop a sense of how producing an actual song works because things like vocal melody and background harmony and chord voicings have alot to do with making older chords sound refreshing and new also every artists has their own category of charisma to bring to a song so if you make a beat with same chord progressions used in Britney Spears hold it against me depending on who you work with how they harmonize and how they integrate vocal melody with the already instrumental harmony you would get a range of different refreshing original results. Its all down to experimentation and knowledge spend time learning and then experimenting on what you just learned this process is used in school and it works!

Thanks! I knew there was something wrong in my approach, but you summarized it well. Though bandcoach already suggested me to see if it's not the chords itself but the rhythm stuff etc.

Listening to music that you want to make is important but it becomes a lot more useful when you know what you should be listening to. Good info. Have you yourself produced pop music? Like bubblegum pop or something like that, that always have the same chords and melodies.

 

[Amsterdamned]

i wonder always if the top notch producers finish a beat and then record on it or if they start with the loop and then add the vocals etc.

i see myself often lost in the melodies . i have a start and a nice loop but often i get lost then. i find thousands of melodies, but to choose the right one is pretty hard and most of the times i end up with picking the easiest one ^^.
i found out that when i work on a project with an artist i know, that i finish beats way faster then. i was working with german rappers 3 years ago and we finished 2 albums in 2 months and i was working with a french rapper 2 years ago and we did a lot of songs. it was easy because i knew the direction.

when i go into pop songs im stuck most of the times after the rhythm and chord section because i think that i need a singer first and a topic to create further melodies which will support the overall feeling. how r u guys doing that? do u probably already hear the end product in your head? je ne sais pas

 

[Wedges2]

Wedges2 you are probably right in many things. I do think that learning from books can help me, extensive knowledge of theory is useful, but it's not the most important thing right now to familiarize with complex theories. Cause as we know, it's not so complex in modern music.

What do you think, how much do the very top producers "calculate" when producing and composing?

Your right it's not the chordes in "Hold it against me" that make it what it is. Though the chordes are very important to get right. It's the sounds and the composition. As far as that goes that is simple. It's just a verse with steady drums, first 8 or 4 bars of the chorus without drums and then another 4 or 8 with drums. Same arrangment as "Fireworks" pretty much and a ton of other pop songs.

 

[Vurki]

when i go into pop songs im stuck most of the times after the rhythm and chord section because i think that i need a singer first and a topic to create further melodies which will support the overall feeling. how r u guys doing that? do u probably already hear the end product in your head? je ne sais pas

That's exactly one of my problems. I once started to create a track based on unfinished lyrics that had a catchy chorus line, and I made a good composition for that. It happened just like that. But usually I don't have any lyrics or melodic pieces, and it's hard to first to create a good base and then find someone to put some lyrics to it... should I make the melody first? But then the writer may find it hard to arrange the lyrics to exact melody. But if I let the lyricist write it first without melody, it may be hard to arrange it to the track. It would be cool to always work with some lyricist/melody composer, so you could always design the track to fit all the lyrics, melody, composition, production style etc.

Wedges, I just think I need to pay attention to arranging the chords with sounds and rhythms. I'll see how I'll proceed once I start to examine this.

 

[Emmapeel9]

The writer - lyricist arrangement should be a collaborative one. It's unrealistic to expect the exact lyrics to sound good musically and there has to be compromise. Each has to know how the other works for things to be productive.

The best arrangement is where they work together to get the best song, however if it is the case that you are receiving the lyrics to put music without the help of the lyricist then personnally I would be editing the lyrics to get the best music out of them - as little as possible off course as the lyrics are important.

Working out a melody from lyrics can be easier than working them out from scratch as you have some foundation in place already. But getting a good song (And money for the writers ) is the main thing and each writer has to understand this.

EP

 

[Vurki]

The writer - lyricist arrangement should be a collaborative one. It's unrealistic to expect the exact lyrics to sound good musically and there has to be compromise. Each has to know how the other works for things to be productive.

The best arrangement is where they work together to get the best song, however if it is the case that you are receiving the lyrics to put music without the help of the lyricist then personnally I would be editing the lyrics to get the best music out of them - as little as possible off course as the lyrics are important.

Working out a melody from lyrics can be easier than working them out from scratch as you have some foundation in place already. But getting a good song (And money for the writers ) is the main thing and each writer has to understand this.

EP

I'm working with a singer/lyricist. Unfortunately she doesn't seem to understand the difficulty of music creation and relies on me to produce a world class pop song based on her lyrics, that are totally out of rhythm and structure. The structure is like modern poetry. Since I don't have the writing talent at all, I can't really modify them, they just become stupid. It drives me crazy when I try to explain her that she needs to contribute to the arranging and modify the lyrics if I've got some good song structure, but no, she won't. I feel like I need to leave this ****ing ***** xD well, that would be overreacting. However I'm a little stuck. But, I guess I can't find any advice from this forum to my problem, since it's that I just need to make her understand what is required...

 

[Emmapeel9]

I'm working with a singer/lyricist. Unfortunately she doesn't seem to understand the difficulty of music creation and relies on me to produce a world class pop song based on her lyrics, that are totally out of rhythm and structure. The structure is like modern poetry. Since I don't have the writing talent at all, I can't really modify them, they just become stupid. It drives me crazy when I try to explain her that she needs to contribute to the arranging and modify the lyrics if I've got some good song structure, but no, she won't. I feel like I need to leave this ****ing ***** xD well, that would be overreacting. However I'm a little stuck. But, I guess I can't find any advice from this forum to my problem, since it's that I just need to make her understand what is required...

It's very hard to agree to have lyrics altered when you may have put a lot into every word. Losing even a word may seem a big deal to her as it may lose the whole meaning and emotion too. I would approach the situation gently and try to develop things a bit at a time.

The first thing I would think about is to keep the lyrics intact but just to add on a chorus. This can just be the title line repeated or something that sums up the lyrics - you can both work on this together. Sometimes the music to the verse isn't so important and the chorus is the main musical element. (ABBA's "Thank you for the music" is a good example, more recently Rihanna's album version of "Love the way you lie" )

If you want you can PM me some lyrics and I'll tell you what I would do. It doesn't have to be too much exactly the words, and also remember not to send anything of hers without her permission.

EP

 

[KelevraOne]

I'm working with a singer/lyricist. Unfortunately she doesn't seem to understand the difficulty of music creation and relies on me to produce a world class pop song based on her lyrics, that are totally out of rhythm and structure. The structure is like modern poetry. Since I don't have the writing talent at all, I can't really modify them, they just become stupid. It drives me crazy when I try to explain her that she needs to contribute to the arranging and modify the lyrics if I've got some good song structure, but no, she won't. I feel like I need to leave this ****ing ***** xD well, that would be overreacting. However I'm a little stuck. But, I guess I can't find any advice from this forum to my problem, since it's that I just need to make her understand what is required...

I'd suggest to that you ask her to try and write lyrics with a clear chorus, verse, bridge etc... because if it is poetry not all poetry fits well into music and you need to make her understand that fact. You'll have to show her a compromise to get her to compromise. As far as your problem with chord progressions go. you are right when you said a lot of simple ones are used over and over. I would suggest that you try varying up the rhythm for your chord progressions. An example would be to add a couple of Arpeggios to liven up the arrangement. Or syncopate the rhythm that the chords play. Little tricks like that will help. Another thing is to have a different instrument play the chord rhythm. If you usually have it played on guitar use a piano. If a piano use a guitar. You could also you a type of synth to do it too. A lot of chords sound good on a rhodes synth preset or a hammond organ preset.

 

[bandcoach]

Bandcoach, could you explain that chord rhythm thing a little? What should I pay attention to when arranging chords to beats?

Rhythmic choice is usually the key to whether a particular chord sits well against a melody or not.

However, this rhythmic choice runs at two levels.

Level one is the rate at which chords change: this is called the harmonic rhythm. It can run at a new chord every half bar to a new chord every twenty bars

Level two is the rhythm that is being used to play the chord. Again, it can vary from one stab per bar to sixteen or more individual hits of the chord. Stylistic and genre considerations come into play with this. In Reggae, for example, the keyboard chords tend to bubble along, playing a dotted quaver~semi-quaver rhythm throughout. The guitar chords are offbeat quavers, i.e.

or semi-quaver pairs, i.e.

Let's think about Britney Spears' Hold It Against Me. The chords have been used millions of times before. However the track is still very original, it's the sounds and arrangement. But what makes those chords fit to the track so well? It feels so mysterious to me cause I sometimes feel like I've create as great instruments and sounds as for example there are in that Britney's track, but my composition sucks, even I can't see any significant difference to Britney's track's composition. Maybe it's so intuitive that you can't explain the differences...

OK, so it is C minor 7th for the verse and then moves to Ab - Bb - G7 - C minor 7th for the chorus. Functionally, this comes back to:

i[sup]7[/sup] - [sup]b[/sup]VI - [sup]b[/sup]VII - V[sup]7[/sup] - i[sup]7[/sup]​

In the key of C minor, the scales could be

C~D~Eb~F~G~Ab~Bb~C for the natural minor
C~D~Eb~F~G~Ab~B~C for the harmonic minor
C~D~Eb~F~G~A~B~C for the ascending melodic minor​

The chords contain the following notes

C minor 7th: C~Eb~G~Bb
Ab: Ab~C~Eb
Bb: Bb~D~F
G7: G~B~D~F​

It is plain to see and hear that the natural minor is being used for most of the harmonic structure, with a quick nod the harmonic minor for the G7 chord.

Ab and Bb are also chords in the related major key of Eb major (exact same notes as the natural minor, starting on Eb instead), where they are chords IV and V respectively.

So, when the chorus hits I hear this immediate shift to a major key with a minor perfect cadence (V7 - i7) at the end of every four bars.

To answer your entire statement, though, we have the chicken and the egg conundrum. Which came first the melody or the chords?

Without a statement from inside the camp, we won't know for sure, but I would hazard a guess that it was chords first, then lyrics then melody, somewhat improvised over the chord progression.

What do you think, how much do the very top producers "calculate" when producing and composing?

Deliberately: a few; unconsciously: all of them.

E: Bandcoach, in your web site when I open the part "Phasing as a tool for melodic and harmonic creation" terrible noise starts. I guess it's all the music pieces on the site together. What's that and how can I get rid of it?

That's one or more of the musical examples all being triggered to autoplay. I've fixed it by replacing the embedding with a jukebox player instead. (now have to do that to the rest of the site - bit of work to do there!)

 

[Vurki]

I was busy for couple of days but I'm back again now.

Emmapeel9: just like she isn't experienced writer, I'm not very experienced producer either, so if I'm just patient, she will probably learn more just like I. If we manage to proceed in our project and she writes something more suitable for my music during the following months, I will gladly present the lyrics to you! Advice would be great, thanks for that.

KelevraOne: that variation and experimenting with rhythms and sounds seems to be important. For example, I've been afraid of using acoustic or vintage analog/electric instruments since they might not fit well with the modern synths, but then after being discontent with a chord progression played by a good synth sound per se, I changed the instrument to sampled real organ and damn, it works now. Thanks for suggestions.

Bandcoach: thanks for your explanation. It is useful to take a theoretic look to the music I'm making. And thinking about those reggae rhythms etc. - I never actually thought that you could benefit from such rhythms when arranging chords or anything, I just thought reggae guitarists play that way and that's it, nothing more. I gotto try all these things. Thanks And btw now your site does work, I'm checking it out. It's great you give so much help and advice here just for free!