another chord question

dastig

New member
when a chord is abbreviated as bIV or, biii, does that just mean that you play the IV or iii chord, but with the root flatted?
ie. would you play bIV in the key of C with the following notes: E-A-C ?

also, what exactly is an augmented 6 chord?

and lastly, is there any difference between II and V/V or III and V/VI?
 
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classical? i believe.. isn't it all the same anyhow?

the classical (figured bass) and jazz roman numeral system is very different.

1st off, most jazz systems dont use lower case roman numerals at all. in classical, if the numeral is lower case, its a minor chord.

in jazz, "III" always means "chord built on the major 3rd of the key youre in". in classical, however, "III" usually (always?) means "major chord with root on the minor third of the key youre in". in classical, "III" chords usually occour in minor keys. the equivalent chord in jazz notation to a classical "III" chord is called "bIIImaj"

so, if you hear me talking about a "bVImaj7" chord in one of my posts, i am referring to a major seventh chord, having its root on the minor sixth of the key. if i remember correctly, the equivalent chord in classical notation is called "VI7". can you see how this can become confusing (in jazz, a "VI7" chord is something entirely different)?

the way you can tell if your talking jazz or classical is if your using lower case roman numerals (eg.: ii, always classical), and if your saying if things are major or minor (eg.: IImin, always jazz).

its very important not to mix up the two systems, because it becomes impossible for other people to know what you mean.

when a chord is abbreviated as bIV or, biii, does that just mean that you play the IV or iii chord, but with the root flatted?

basically, in classical, yes.

as i just explained, however, in jazz, no.

in jazz notation, you build the entire chord based on the scale degree indicated, and all roman numerals are ALWAYS based on the major scale.

p.s. i have never in my life heard of a bIV chord. :)

also, what exactly is an augmented 6 chord?

its a classical thing. im a little rusty, im sure someone else around here will know.

(in jazz, you could have and augmented triad with a major 6th on it, but thats entirely different. i think that would be called an augmented 6 chord and would be written: C6aug ? or C6#5. they dont happen very often, it would basically be an inversion of a minor major seven chord)

and lastly, is there any difference between II and V/V or III and V/VI?

in jazz theory, a II7 chord is different than a V7/V because it doesnt go to the V.

eg.:
C7 `` D7 `` C7
I7 `` II7 `` I7

eg.:
C7 ` D7 ``` G7 ` C7
I7 ` V7/V `` V7 ` I7

capisch?
 
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wait wait wait.
let's say we're in C, playing jazz. I come across a bIII7 chord.

don't I play
Eb G Bb Db?

doesn't it mean "a dominant 7th chord built on the flatted third?"
 
thank you stoopidbeatz, you are an amazing help.

good, anytime:)

wait wait wait.
let's say we're in C, playing jazz. I come across a bIII7 chord.
not to be a smartazz, but to clarify ive never been in a playing situation where the chart said "bIII7". this kind of notation is reserved for analysis.
don't I play
Eb G Bb Db?

doesn't it mean "a dominant 7th chord built on the flatted third?"
yes. was that not clear by my post? please help me understand if it was not.

edit: to my knowledge, in classical theory the chord you mentioned (Eb G Bb Db in the key of C minor) would be called "IIIb7", not "bIII7", and that was basically my point.
 
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StoopidBeatz said:

edit: to my knowledge, in classical theory the chord you mentioned (Eb G Bb Db in the key of C minor) would be called "IIIb7", not "bIII7", and that was basically my point.

bIII7 is right in the classical world too. as far as I know... I would take IIIb7 to mean "a major chord on the 3rd scale degree with a minor 7th"
 
edit: to my knowledge, in classical theory the chord you mentioned (Eb G Bb Db in the key of C minor) would be called "IIIb7", not "bIII7", and that was basically my point.

bIII7 is right in the classical world too. as far as I know... I would take IIIb7 to mean "a major chord on the 3rd scale degree with a minor 7th"



thats why i said C minor. when you see "III" in C minor that it automatically means "major chord built on the third", which is Eb of course. the "b" in front of the "III" would be wrong because Eb is already in the key signature of C minor. im not sure about "bIII" chords in a major key, now you guys got me thinking... :)



in figured bass the accidentals refer to notes actually sharped or flatted once the notes are realized... thats why you need "b7" (for the Db) in the example:
c minor: IIIb7 (III7 would be a major 7th chord)
(that also explains why you dont see "Vb7", but instead V7. the seventh on a V chord is always minor, so the accidental is unneccecary. also, in C major "IV7" means a major 7 chord built on the fourth degree, not dominant).

back to our example, on the figured bass music you would see an Eb note written in the bass and underneath it "b7".

of course, music is taught differently, but as far as i know figured bass is fairly universal...
 
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