Song structure with mid mud

[HalfBlacko0000]

Ok guys I need your help when im making a song 9 time out of 10 I start with the drums, then the melody then bass going down the line in a 4 bar fashion but when it comes time to expand on my ideas I get lost I know 2~4 bar intro 8 bar hook 16 bar verse I can spread everything out but it starts to sound boring and repetitive about 16~20 bars in I have a hard time with transitions and fillers and when I do start to make progress I start to get alot of masking going on in the low mid range I know this is a broad question but I need some advice. yes I eq the lows that dont need to be in there and I try transposing but that usually changes the sound way to much I know you gotta give and take when your eqin but alot of synths sounds I dont know where to cut. The only reason this is a 2 part question is that mixing and song structure go hand n hand and if anyone has any tips that would be great. Im working on a song now if I can ill upload it to youtube so I can show you what I mean

 

[rhythmgj]

Hi HB,

You're talking about at least three different, related things-- song structure, arrangement, and mixing/EQ.

Song structure is only tangentially related, in that you are working on a song, and it will have some kind of structure. But really, the number of verses and choruses and where you put the bridge have little to nothing to do with EQ, right?

So what you're really talking about is arrangement (both how you use harmony/notes on notes/orchestration and the choices you make in instrumentation, style, etc., etc.). Those choices will have a major impact on whether or not you deal with "mid mud" at mix time.

A few suggestions. First, listen to lots of music. That may sound trite, but it really is a helpful thing to do. But engage in critical listening, not just head-bobbing listening. Pick some popular songs in the genre you are trying to work in, and analyze them thoroughly. What are the rhythm instruments doing? What are the harmony instruments doing? Melodies and counter-melodies? Get an idea of how those things are typically handled in the genre that you are dealing with.

I'd also suggest getting some basic books on arranging. There a few primers out there that are really good, that aren't so theoretical that you'll want to toss the book after a few sentences. One I suggest checking out is Rock Arranging (I think it was published by Billboard books?). Don't be scared-off by the title; "rock" in this case means "various popular styles" and you can definitely apply the information to rap, r&b, whatever style you're into. Plus, it never hurts to listen to and analyze some good music, regardless of whether or not it's your particular favorite or not.

Lastly, if I was to throw a quick diagnosis out at you, I'd say that it sounds like one of your basic problems is that you are doing too much in the same register, perhaps without a lot of variety in your voicings. Put simply, if I have a C Major chord, followed by a G Major chord, and I arrange my performance so that five keyboards and four guitars are all playing those two chords with the same rhythm, in the same frequency range (the "middle of the keyboard") using the same exact order of notes (C-E-G, G-B-D), it will be difficult to impossible for me not to have "mid mud;" I've got to start shifting parts higher and lower and changing inversions and voicings (note order and choices in chord creation) to make the arrangement "breathe" more naturally. Then things will work out on their own more, and I won't have to wrestle with EQ on every single instrument/track. Same thing is true for melody lines and riffs-- too much in the same register will not yield good results. In fact, too much of anything can sometimes be just too much, so think about trimming things down a little.

I've seen it happen over and over, in the studio (with MIDI production, samples, and live instruments) and with live bands on stage, and my best advice would be "Get out of the middle!"

GJ

 

[HalfBlacko0000]

thanks GJ for your reply, but I feel how I have stuff structured really does have a effect on what I need to eq if I have 4 instruments playing at the same time in the hook im gonna have to give or take somewhere along the line unless I have the notes a octave apart I use alot of sampler instruments so when you get up into the higher and lower octaves it starts to lose its sparkle as a instrument. I do listen to alot of music prob more then I should its like if I have a hoover as a bass, a pizzy pluck as a melody, a piano as my counter melody, and a dirty south squill come in for the hook all of those instruments really shine in the low mid and the upper mid range I know this is possible because ive heard it clearly on alot of albums. I know you got vetern mix engineers with a couple million dollar equipment but it isnt anything fabfilter EQ and a couple of waves plugin cant handle.

 

[Gloopikat]

thanks GJ for your reply, but I feel how I have stuff structured really does have a effect on what I need to eq if I have 4 instruments playing at the same time in the hook im gonna have to give or take somewhere along the line unless I have the notes a octave apart I use alot of sampler instruments so when you get up into the higher and lower octaves it starts to lose its sparkle as a instrument. I do listen to alot of music prob more then I should its like if I have a hoover as a bass, a pizzy pluck as a melody, a piano as my counter melody, and a dirty south squill come in for the hook all of those instruments really shine in the low mid and the upper mid range I know this is possible because ive heard it clearly on alot of albums. I know you got vetern mix engineers with a couple million dollar equipment but it isnt anything fabfilter EQ and a couple of waves plugin cant handle.

You raise an interesting point. Yes, in this way composition is related to EQing via song structure. It's also a question of how wide you can make your sounds - something I'm experimenting with as well as the moment. There are other things to consider. For example, I can allow my plucked sine-wave sound to bleed into 160Hz territory, while my sustained pad doesn't go lower than 200Hz. Why? Because the low sustain on the plucked sound doesn't interfere with major bass elements in terms of when they hit. But in the interest of keeping the mono elements strong (kick, bass), I have to make a really deep sine bass that doesn't bleed into the pad. So that balancing act is one direction worth examining. I wouldn't transpose stuff too much, as I don't think that's the issue here.

With regard to composition, when you have those 4-5 instruments playing at the same time, it's sometimes a question of how prominent you make them at what time. If the pad has built up to something (if you gradually increased frequency etc.), for instance, then I would shorten the release on something else, to avoid them bleeding into each other. Conversely, when the pad subsides, you wold accentuate the prominence of another sound against a deep bass, either by increasing decay/release, or bringing it back in volume, or adding slight delay. Accentuating different frequencies at different times in the structure is a very powerful technique for creating space. Because the human ear constantly adjusts the narrowest-widest points of reference when listening to music, so a good balance and panning of frequencies at different points in time is what causes pleasure.

Those are all very lose guidelines from personal experience, aimed at somehow tying in conflicting frequencies with composition. So please tell me if I misunderstood your question!

 

[bandcoach]

thanks GJ for your reply, but I feel how I have stuff structured really does have a effect on what I need to eq if I have 4 instruments playing at the same time in the hook im gonna have to give or take somewhere along the line unless I have the notes a octave apart

instrument use is not part of structure (the different sections of a song/tune/beat) - it is part of the arrangement/orchestration applied to individual parts of the structure

I use a lot of sampler instruments so when you get up into the higher and lower octaves it starts to lose its sparkle as a instrument.

I don't follow this argument, an instrument that is properly sampled has a base range of notes that it can be assigned to before another sample needs to be used.

Most sample libraries use many different samples per note to replicate different velocities of the same note and use maps to determine which sample gets used where during playback.

All instruments have regions of notes that are more brilliant, more shrill, more dark, more thin than others across the instrument - this is the basic tenet of orchestration: using the appropriate range of notes to achieve the required sound.

Even if you are using a synth instead of a real instrument, the basic idea remains: some of the notes played by the synth will be more brilliant, more shrill, more dark, more thin than others across the instrument. EQ can change the nature of the instrument to some extent but cannot correct poor range choices

Its like if I have a hoover as a bass, a pizzy pluck as a melody, a piano as my counter melody, and a dirty south squill come in for the hook all of those instruments really shine in the low mid and the upper mid range

Maybe this is true, but then this can be said of most instruments, as they are built or designed for reproduction in certain frequency ranges more so than others, even if they are capable of playing higher or lower

I know this is possible because ive heard it clearly on a lot of albums. I know you got vetern mix engineers with a couple million dollar equipment but it isnt anything fabfilter EQ and a couple of waves plugin cant handle.

All of this is true.

However, we come back to a few basic questions (and some suggestions):
1) how are you panning your instruments before you apply eq?
2) what sort of eq are you using in the first place?
3) what ranges are each of your instruments playing in to begin with?
a) if they are all playing in the same octave then separation is difficult - consider moving one or more to the octave above or below
b) even if the timbre (overtone structure and phase/amplitude relationships of the overtone structure) is different for each instrument, they will still be trying to occupy the same frequency range and thus obstructing and masking each other
c) shifting some parts up or down an octave will do wonders for your mix (before you apply panning and EQ)
d) never assume that something must be fixed in a particular octave
e) never assume that you should only use one octave for a particular line to be played - the art of orchestration is about doubling at the octave above or the octave below as much as it is about choosing the key octave to begin with

 

[rhythmgj]

>>>>this is the basic tenet of orchestration: using the appropriate range of notes to achieve the required sound.<<<<

AND

++++3) what ranges are each of your instruments playing in to begin with?
a) if they are all playing in the same octave then separation is difficult - consider moving one or more to the octave above or below
b) even if the timbre (overtone structure and phase/amplitude relationships of the overtone structure) is different for each instrument, they will still be trying to occupy the same frequency range and thus obstructing and masking each other
c) shifting some parts up or down an octave will do wonders for your mix (before you apply panning and EQ)
d) never assume that something must be fixed in a particular octave
e) never assume that you should only use one octave for a particular line to be played - the art of orchestration is about doubling at the octave above or the octave below as much as it is about choosing the key octave to begin with++++

We have a winner, ladies and gentlemen...

GJ

 

[HalfBlacko0000]

I think I fugured out the problem I was using a couple of soundfonts a couple kontakt instruments that I sampled around the C3 area and I was getting distortion and fuzz from the quality of the instruments I really need to purchase another rompler I have nexus 2 but im really limited to the sounds I can use and when I make my own on the fly I get horrible results I did a test a song with my own samples and soundfonts and a song with quality samples and its amazing how much clearer everything turned out