is so much theory needed to be a great piano player?

dmajor100

dmajor100

Active member
Ive read alot especially from ppl saying "it open new doors for me" and im assuming either they knew little or none at all but i fell that too much theory can drive you mad. Im having to right this because the other day i had a well conversation with a producer friend who has studied music theory and is a violin player,keyboard,guitar said that i shouldt get to deep and just keep it simple. Was explaining to him that im at a audio school and my theory teach was getting real advanced real quick on theory to newbies and myself a novice about why certain notes belong to others and blah blah blah melotic,nautral,intrevals.All this was not even on a keyboard but just on a markerboard and even tho i know my chords,scales,notes,inversions,diminised,sus's he still said to just stay minor and major but use your chords and try not to figure out too much or ill go crazy.
 
dmajor100 said:
Ive read alot especially from ppl saying "it open new doors for me" and im assuming either they knew little or none at all but i fell that too much theory can drive you mad. Im having to right this because the other day i had a well conversation with a producer friend who has studied music theory and is a violin player,keyboard,guitar said that i shouldt get to deep and just keep it simple. Was explaining to him that im at a audio school and my theory teach was getting real advanced real quick on theory to newbies and myself a novice about why certain notes belong to others and blah blah blah melotic,nautral,intrevals.All this was not even on a keyboard but just on a markerboard and even tho i know my chords,scales,notes,inversions,diminised,sus's he still said to just stay minor and major but use your chords and try not to figure out too much or ill go crazy.
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Short answer, yes. The real question is, how quickly are you expecting to become a great piano player?
The problem is most people will try to take in too much to soon without mastering the basics first. My advice is slow down and learn what you need to get what you want. Too much theory TOO SOON will drive you mad-just like too much of anything, you have to take your time and absorb and utilize the information before you can obtain more information. Of course, a college course is going to go at a college-level pace, you got to do the work to keep up. But, theory isn't something that you can learn and then use right away, it has to be processed at a careful pace since so many concepts build upon each other. My advice is to learn the stuff slowly, learn how to both HEAR and APPLY the knowledge before learning newer concepts. Slow down, you have the rest of your life to become a great piano player. Music isn't a race.
 
you need to learn it. lol


maybe not on a crazy crazy crazy deep level but you need to know your scales your intervals what a tone and semitone is how to find relative scales and all that. You dont need it to make great music if you have that ear but its a lot easier when you know what your doing..


instead of pecking around trying to make a song you can just be like ah **** it ill just jam the pentatonic till i find something i like then go from there
 
I asked is it any different than just going home knowing by memory what they are instead of saying this c# is relative because of this and with is tgis you can do that. I rather just know what it is and finger it in mu memory and not get complicated.
 
dmajor100 said:
I asked is it any different than just going home knowing by memory what they are instead of saying this c# is relative because of this and with is tgis you can do that. I rather just know what it is and finger it in mu memory and not get complicated.
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It is supposed to be complicated in the beginning. You're asking can I just "know" it from memory while avoiding the more complicated aspects----that's backwards. Kinda like asking could you "know" calculus without ever having to deal with tedious graphing, derivatives, limits and such. You'd be laughed out of the math department. You're not supposed to just read this stuff for the first time and then just "know" it to the point where you could implement it effortlessly. You could try, but as you progress, you'll be hitting brick walls all the time because your foundation is weak. Think of it as a house. You could build a house on top of a weak foundation, but it will be an incredibly laborious task and ultimately, the whole structure will be weak. Before you can "know" anything, you have to first "learn and understand". Practice, patience, and study is how you commit anything to memory. The great musicians we look up to didn't learn a concept and immediately start using it with expert proficiency when they were first starting out. It took a bit of time and effort to understand what it was they were learning enough to utilize it in an fluent manner. There are no shortcuts.
 
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Well i must be slow cause people in my class room with no history of theory seemed to get it in one day and i did not and i be trying to learn for a year.
 
dmajor100 said:
Well i must be slow cause people in my class room with no history of theory seemed to get it in one day and i did not and i be trying to learn for a year.
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I seriously doubt that is the case. I am starting my second semester of Music Theory and when I started out, our class consisted of three types of students-
1. Those with prior music experience but no formal training

2. Those with no prior music experience and no formal training

3. Those with both formal music training and experience

I fell into category 1, much like yourself, but with the time, effort and persistence, I passed the class with an A. You're not slow, you just "seem" to lack patience and focus. I was like that at the beginning---trying to do too much. You just gotta slow down, study the material inside and out. Also, make it a priority to communicate with your instructor on a consistent basis, and network with the more knowledgeable students in your class. But, slow down and work to understand each new concept you're learning. And ear train like a mofo.
 
Short answer, you don't need to know too much to begin.

Longer answer, you need to know a lot to be great.

This is similar to guitar students of mine who all want to play the latest songs now but they don't know how to use their fingers to hold individual notes let alone chords - they set themselves up for failure by insisting on achieving what is really 3-6 months down the track from their first lesson.

We eventually get to a point where they understand why it was impossible to teach them what they wanted to know on day one, if they stick at it. They reach this point on their own because they can suddenly play a whole lot of things they couldn't before, all down to practice and patience.

The same thing with piano or any other instrument really - you need to learn the mechanical aspects of holding your hands and producing the sound in a controlled manner - that takes time and patience. Learning chords, learning scales, learning arpeggios are all part of the learning the mechanics.

You are describing a situation where you are being asked to memorise facts. To memorise facts you have to review them and apply them until you are no longer thinking about how or why or what but just do. Go to teoría - Music Theory Web and use their ear training and theory training software to assist you with memorising these facts. 10 minutes each day will cement these for the rest of your life (well at least until you develop severe Alzheimers or oldtimers memory problems).

Taking pumpthrusts points above I was in category 3 when I started at university and most of the theory work was a romp because I wasn't thinking about it but just doing it. I had to work at hard at mastering rhythmic dictation but that was because it was something lacking in my early education, a lack that I eventually overcame. I insist on rhythmic work as the foundation of all of my teaching with private students as everything can be reduced to timing in the end (any pitch/freq is simply a very fast rhythm at heart (repeated pulses)) - the better your rhythmic understanding the better your performances.
 
Actually just did a google and from one paragraph it made more sense than my teacher who teaches fast and complex. So 6 tones up in a major scale is a relative and the other way around is down 3 tones. So basically i can choose between two scales in that one scale sort of speak a happy version and sader version.
 
dmajor100 said:
Actually just did a google and from one paragraph it made more sense than my teacher who teaches fast and complex. So 6 tones up in a major scale is a relative and the other way around is down 3 tones. So basically i can choose between two scales in that one scale sort of speak a happy version and sader version.
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Okay I think you're trying to understand how to find the relative minor scale of a major scale, am I right?
It seems like you've got it. The sixth degree of any major scale is the first note of its relative/natural minor scale. Another way to find the relative minor of any major scale is to count 3 degrees back from the root of the major scale.
To find the parallel minor of any major scale, you will flatten/lower the 3rd, 6th and 7th degrees of the major scale.
C Major: C D E F G A B C
C Minor: C D Eb F G Ab Bb C

Sometimes you'll see the formula for a natural minor scale written like this: I II bIII IV V bVI bVII
 
Up 9 semitones, down 3 semitones - using the word tone in these contexts will get you into trouble.

You can go up to the 6th note of the scale or down to the 6th note of the scale.

However, you go up 5 scale degrees to the 6th degree and you go down 2 scale degrees to the 6th degree if starting on the tonic/root of the major scale.

Scale Degree12345678
Chords on DegreeIiiiiiIVVvivii[sup]b5[/sup](I)
Ex in CCDEFGABC
Semitones245791112
Scale Degree12[sup]b[/sup]345[sup]b[/sup]6[sup]b[/sup]78
Chords on Degreeiii[sup]b5[/sup][sup]b[/sup]IIIivv[sup]b[/sup]VI[sup]b[/sup]VII(i)
Rel Min AABCDEFGA
Semitones235781012
 
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Are u saying semitones are halfsteps and why is the 3rd and 6th flatted i thought a natural minor scale just had the 3flated.
 
semitones are the same as half-steps; it is a case of language use and location European/British/Australian vs USA

Nat minor has three notes that are flattened from the tonic/parallel major:

Major12345678
MajorTTSTTTS
Major0245791112
Minor12[sup]b[/sup]345[sup]b[/sup]6[sup]b[/sup]78
MinorTSTTSTT
Minor0235781012
 
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I think lots of theory is needed to be a good pianist, but doesn't guarantee anything.

Takes a lot of practice, and IMO curiosity because you have to always want to be trying new things.
 
Still dont get it what i only figueres is c is relative to a so does this go for every key either major or minor. If a was in c# minor in a natural minor would the b flat be relative its relative major. I dnt know i need slow one on one of this broken down or a very good resource
 
dmajor100 said:
Still dont get it what i only figueres is c is relative to a so does this go for every key either major or minor. If a was in c# minor in a natural minor would the b flat be relative its relative major. I dnt know i need slow one on one of this broken down or a very good resource
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You're making it harder than it really is or needs to be.
Don't worry about c# minor or whatever is relative to what, go back and study the circle of keys(circle of fifths), and the formula for building scales. It all goes back to the circle of keys, if you don't understand that, you're gonna struggle with everything else.
I suggest (as I have before) to consult with your instructor about your concerns.
 
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Going around the Circle of Fifths clockwise we see the following:

MajorRel Min
CAmin
GEmin
DBmin
AF[sup]#[/sup]min
EC[sup]#[/sup]min
BG[sup]#[/sup]min
C[sup]b[/sup]A[sup]b[/sup]min
F[sup]#[/sup]D[sup]#[/sup]min
G[sup]b[/sup]E[sup]b[/sup]min
C[sup]#[/sup]A[sup]#[/sup]min
D[sup]b[/sup]B[sup]b[/sup]min
A[sup]b[/sup]Fmin
E[sup]b[/sup]Cmin
B[sup]b[/sup]Gmin
FDmin
 
So is it modulation when going from a minor key to a relative minor. Like if i play c major and going a minor can i then play the a minor scale and it still make sense.
 
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