is so much theory needed to be a great piano player?

But what minor scale goes with in the c major scale. I searches you tube a a guy said a harmonic a minor is relative to c major but how if the seventh is flated. I thought all the notes were supost to be in th same scale.
 
and around we go again - by which I mean we spiral around to the beginning as we would in teaching this in the real world.

There are three type of minor scales that we use
Natural
TSTTSTT

This is the direct relative minor - no changes, no alterations, no nothing

Harmonic
TSTTST[sup]1/2[/sup]S

This is the relative minor version used for ensuring that chord V is a major chord and so able to be used with a minor 7th to create the dominant 7th so necessary for diatonic harmony

Melodic ascending
TSTTSTTS

This is the version used for creating melodies that rise to the tonic or other notes via scale degrees 6 and 7 - rising up was treated as though it were the end of a major scale

Melodic Descending
TSTTSTT (it's the natural minor)

This is the version used for creating melodies fall to the tonic or other notes via scale degrees 6 and 7 - falling down was treated as though it were the end of a natural minor scale

Also go back to my table where I give you the relative major and minor scales/keys. Accept for now that the three scale forms mentioned above can be equally used as the relative minor form for each key,.

So for C major the relative minors are:

A Natural minor ~ A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A

A Harmonic minor ~ A-B-C-D-E-F-G[sup]#[/sup]-A

A Melodic minor ascending and descending ~ A-B-C-D-E-F[sup]#[/sup]-G[sup]#[/sup]-A-G-F-E-D-C-B-A

To confuse matters there are the other two parallel minor modes

A Dorian ~ A-B-C-D-E-F[sup]#[/sup]-G-A ~ 2nd mode of G major

and

A Phrygian ~ A-B[sup]b[/sup]-C-D-E-F-G-A ~ 3rd mode of F major
 
No

Chromatic Scale
SSSSSSSSSSSS

Example
Ascending and Descending ~ C-C[sup]#[/sup]-D-D[sup]#[/sup]-E-F-F[sup]#[/sup]-G-G[sup]#[/sup]-A-A[sup]#[/sup]-B-C-B-B[sup]b[/sup]-A-A[sup]b[/sup]-G-G[sup]b[/sup]-F-E-E[sup]b[/sup]-D-D[sup]b[/sup]-C
 
? Ive gone lost. Isnt a relative minor only gonna play the same notes in a relative major scale? Why are other minor scales flat is if your only gonna play in a minor and not switch to relative major? What minor can only play with relative major is what i wanna know?

---------- Post added at 12:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:53 AM ----------

Piano Chords and Scales made easy

this has been the site i have been going to to know all my scales and chords and stuff and i dont see a natural minor scale that fits the my understanding with using relative major and minor together.
 
dmajor100 said:
? Ive gone lost. Isnt a relative minor only gonna play the same notes in a relative major scale? Why are other minor scales flat is if your only gonna play in a minor and not switch to relative major? What minor can only play with relative major is what i wanna know?
Click to expand...

YES, here's why....
I want you to read what i'm about to write VERY CAREFULLY and VERY SLOWLY 100x until it sinks in. Then read it again 100x more.

The relative minor scale IS the 6th(SIXTH) degree(note) of ANY major scale. This applies for EVERY MAJOR SCALE ON THE CIRCLE OF KEYS. Both a major scale and its relative minor will have the SAME NOTES. Relative minor is usually called NATURAL MINOR. SAME THING. The relative minor of the C major scale IS A which IS the 6th degree of the C major scale.
1. C
2. D
3. E
4. F
5. G
6. A <---A Natural minor scale starts here. This is the relative minor scale of the C major scale.
7. B
8. C

Once again, this applies to EVERY MAJOR SCALE.
The relative minor scale is ALSO referred to as the NATURAL MINOR SCALE.

Take any major scale on the circle of keys and count up 6 degrees(notes) and you will land of the first note of its relative minor scale. In other words, the A minor scale STARTS at the 6th note (A) of the C major scale, thus, A minor is the relative minor scale of the C major scale. Therefore, the natural(relative) minor scale will use THE SAME NOTES AS ITS RELATIVE MAJOR SCALE!
C MAJOR SCALE: C D E F G A B C
A NATURAL MINOR SCALE: A B C D E F G A

Ab MAJOR SCALE: Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab
F NATURAL MINOR SCALE: F G Ab Bb C Db Eb F

G MAJOR SCALE: G A B C D E F# G
E NATURAL MINOR SCALE: E F# G A B C D E

Go here: Relative Major and Relative Minor - Understanding Key Signatures and read this, print it out, and re-read it until there is no way it could NOT make sense to you.

I would try to explain the difference between diatonic and chromatic, but that would open a whole other can of worms that I just don't have the patience to deal with right now.

In the meantime, I quit, we're studying voice-leading and counterpoint this semester so I have my own issues to worry about. Good luck.
 
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Now I understand your problems - that calculator is wrong and delivers abnormal results for some scales - I am sorry for your confusion.

I have sent them an e-mail and hope that they will review the calculator and resolve the problem quickly

---------- Post added at 10:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:41 AM ----------

So, to remedy the deficiencies of the webiste dmajor has been frequenting, here is a chart of major, natural minor, harmonic minor and melodic minor scales for keyboards. Took me 2 hours to construct from scratch.

ScalesMain72dpi.png


it prints on 1685 x 3370 pixels @ 72dpi (i.e. 23.4" x 46.8" -> 595mm x 1190 mm) which is 1 sheet of A1 or 2 sheets of A2 or 4 sheets of A3 or 8 sheets of A4; best to take the file (you can download it) to a copy shop of you want it printed as a continuous chart.

---------- Post added at 10:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 AM ----------

These are the parallel scales.

To find the relative minors go up 3 notes or down 9 notes.

---------- Post added 01-20-2012 at 12:40 PM ---------- Previous post was 01-19-2012 at 10:37 AM ----------

Further to the above, hunting through their site for more info on how they defined their scales, I came across a scale they refer to as the pure minor at the bottom of the selections:

It is the Natural minor that you have been looking for and the one I have been telling you about all along.
 
its the same with any instrument, you start out slow, learn your way around the piano, and one day youll just sit down, start playing and realize that you actually doing well for once haha,never really learned theory just practiced and tried to teach myself the basics
 
just personally from experience.
i have come from a family with no musical talent at all except for my dad being an ex sound producer.
i found that less theory with in music was better for me. i found that listening to a piece of music or a song a few times would instill in my head what the music sounded like and the specific notes to be played.

i started piano when i was 5 now im 21 play piano sing guitar and drums. it doesnt take much to master music, it depends on how badly you want to learn with out having prior knowledge of music.

xhushBaby
 
bandcoach said:
So, to remedy the deficiencies of the webiste dmajor has been frequenting, here is a chart of major, natural minor, harmonic minor and melodic minor scales for keyboards. Took me 2 hours to construct from scratch.
Click to expand...

HOW HAS NO ONE THANKED YOU FOR THIS? seriously, bandcoach, many thank you's and 50 virgins.
 
hushbaby said:
just personally from experience.
i have come from a family with no musical talent at all except for my dad being an ex sound producer.
i found that less theory with in music was better for me. i found that listening to a piece of music or a song a few times would instill in my head what the music sounded like and the specific notes to be played.

i started piano when i was 5 now im 21 play piano sing guitar and drums. it doesnt take much to master music, it depends on how badly you want to learn with out having prior knowledge of music.

xhushBaby
Click to expand...

I don't like commenting on threads like this because I seem counterproductive, but everyone learns different. IMO, listening to music is the key to understanding it. All the charts, graphs, books in the world can't teach me nothing, but I can outplay alot of guys who can tell me what chord progression I just used when I don't even know. That's not saying learning "properly" won't benefit some, but I feel alot of guys waste their time when they'd be better off throwing on a pair of headphones and playing tons of music to get to their goals.

Most great musicians I've met can't tell you how they arrived on paper, they just get there, but everyone's experience will differ. And it's "theory" regardless of whether you know it because it sounds right or because it looks right on paper.
 
You don't want to be a machine but I don't see how having the knowledge would be a bad thing. I certainly wouldn't suggest quitting because it's hard.
 
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it is important to note that hushbaby tells us that they started to play at the age of 5 and 16 years later were mastering singing, piano and guitar

- i.e. they tell us the start point and current point on their journey, but do not describe what path they took along the way to learning to play the piano in particular

- I am willing to bet that at the age of 5 they were working from notation with a teacher

- however, as is pointed out there is also the parallel path where alongside the formal learning there is the informal learning that comes from jamming and application without notation in front of you

- I trod both paths and still do so

- the point of the above; it takes many steps to finish a journey and they do not all lie upon the same road; however, we would be foolish not to ask for directions or to even use a map where appropriate
 
bandcoach said:
it is important to note that hushbaby tells us that they started to play at the age of 5 and 16 years later were mastering singing, piano and guitar

- i.e. they tell us the start point and current point on their journey, but do not describe what path they took along the way to learning to play the piano in particular

- I am willing to bet that at the age of 5 they were working from notation with a teacher

- however, as is pointed out there is also the parallel path where alongside the formal learning there is the informal learning that comes from jamming and application without notation in front of you

- I trod both paths and still do so

- the point of the above; it takes many steps to finish a journey and they do not all lie upon the same road; however, we would be foolish not to ask for directions or to even use a map where appropriate
Click to expand...
I'm dealing with this now. Four years ago, I chose to learn jazz music. I'm 35 years old and its hard knowing that no matter how hard you work, no matter how many hours you put in ear training and learning songs, you will never attain the same level of expertise as some kid who has been playing and learning all his life and now is in college studying music fulltime. I seriously considered music school---went as far as dropping out from a pre-med program to take 4 semesters of music at a community college and private lessons. I wish so much that I could be apart of a big university music program and have the opportunity to study my craft fulltime alongside other musicians, but it's an expense I just cannot afford. Not too mention my health and dexterity is no where near that of some cat who has been at it since they were a toddler. You don't know how old your body really is until you decide to learn an instrument. Do I regret not sticking with my plan to go to medical school? YES, I do. But could I put off learning something I love for another 5 years? NO, I couldn't. Even the little bit of theory I do know has helped open my mind and ears tremendously.
I don't know what point I'm trying to make, but for those considering learning music theory and/or taking up an instrument....you got to love it even if it doesn't love you back. Thats the hardest part of this journey.
 
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