Scales and where to use them???

[cribble]

Hi
its been bugging me for a while, i know my modes and other forms of scales. But what really winds me up is what chords and where i can use them.

Can someone tell me how to figure where to use them etc??

 

[grimaybeats555]

Most melodies come from modified scales.

 

[Bezo]

I assume you're asking when to use particular scales.

2 simple answers:
1 - If the chords in the song are all diatonic, you can use the scale related to the key of the song over any of the chords. So, if the song is in E, the E major scale will work over any of the chords.

2 - Regardless of the chords being diatonic or not, you can use the scale associated with each particular chord. So, over a C major chord, you can use the C major scale. Over a D minor chord, you can use the D Dorian or D minor pentatonic scales. Over G7, you can use the G Mixolydian scale. And so on...

The more complex answer which I won't go into much detail about is that depending on the sound you want, you can use other scales that don't appear to be diatonic to a particular chord. A simple example would be using the E minor pentatonic scale over a 12 bar blues in the key of E. Those chords would be E7, A7 & B7. Though the E min pent scale includes notes not in those chords, that scale works and would give the song it's bluesy sound. There are many more complex examples.

Then there are what musicians call color tones. Regarding the 2 simple answers, playing only notes from a scale over a particular chord can sound bland... for example, E major scale over an E major chord. To avoid sounding bland, you'll want to color your melodies with notes outside of the scale on ocassion.
7 notes in the E major scale, and 12 notes available over all. Some of the other 5 notes will sound sour, and some will sound great. It's up to you to select the right color tones to create the sound you're looking for.

There are entire books on this subject, so I can't begin to scratch the surface here. I'd suggest getting some theory books for what ever instrument you're playing.

 

[cribble]

ok, thanks for the reply. I'm slowly getting the hang of it now.

 

[Parakalo]

BEZO said... 1 - If the chords in the song are all diatonic, you can use the scale related to the key of the song over any of the chords. So, if the song is in E, the E major scale will work over any of the chords.

Thats not true...There is no way for an E major scale to work over ANY of the chords....Then everything will simply sound as E Major...every diatonic chord has its characteristic notes which make the actual chord...
Most of the times the characteristic notes of the chord are the 3rd and the 7th.
e.g. For a Dmin7 chord the characteristic notes are F and C. If you use a C Major scale over the Dmin7 Chord and emphasize the notes G and B then the quality and the sound of the chord is changed to a Gdom7.
A quick lesson
C Major scale=>

CMaj7 chord => Ionian scale => C to C with no alterations, char. notes E and B, "Avoid" Note F

DMin7 chord => Dorian D to D, no alter. Char notes F and C "Avoid" notes G and B

Emin7 Chord => Phrygian, E to E no alter, char notes G and D, "Avoid" Notes F and C

FMaj7 Chord => Lydian Scale => F to F no alter, Char notes A and E, No Avoid Notes

Gdom7 => Mixolydian Scale, G to G, no alter, Char Notes B and F, "Avoid" note C

Amin7 => Aeolian Scale, A to A, no alter, Char notes C and G, "Avoid" note F

Bmin7b5 => Locrian Scale, B to B, no alter, Char Notes D and A "Avoid" Note C.

**"Avoid" Note doesnt necassarily mean that you are not allowed to use it. Someone must be carefull on how to use and ussualy its used in weak beat and as a chromatic or in some cases to provide tension.

I hope my information are helpfull

Thnx

 

[Bezo]

Thats not true...There is no way for an E major scale to work over ANY of the chords....Then everything will simply sound as E Major

Of course you can use E Major over any of its diatonic chords. No, everything won't sound like E major. It will sound like what ever chord is being played. Depending on what notes are emphasized, it may extend the chords, but it will sound fine.

...every diatonic chord has its characteristic notes which make the actual chord...
Most of the times the characteristic notes of the chord are the 3rd and the 7th.

True

e.g. For a Dmin7 chord the characteristic notes are F and C. If you use a C Major scale over the Dmin7 Chord and emphasize the notes G and B then the quality and the sound of the chord is changed to a Gdom7.

Not necesarily. 1st, you don't have to play every note of the C major scale. 2nd, why do you assume he or I would emphasize G & B when using the C scale over Dmin7?

Even if I did, G is the 4th(11th) degree of D and extends the chord making it sound like Dmin11, which is still diatonic to C. And B is the 6th(13th) degree of D, and would extend the chord to Dmin13 which is also diatonic.

A quick lesson
C Major scale=>

CMaj7 chord => Ionian scale => C to C with no alterations, char. notes E and B, "Avoid" Note F

DMin7 chord => Dorian D to D, no alter. Char notes F and C "Avoid" notes G and B

Emin7 Chord => Phrygian, E to E no alter, char notes G and D, "Avoid" Notes F and C

FMaj7 Chord => Lydian Scale => F to F no alter, Char notes A and E, No Avoid Notes

Gdom7 => Mixolydian Scale, G to G, no alter, Char Notes B and F, "Avoid" note C

Amin7 => Aeolian Scale, A to A, no alter, Char notes C and G, "Avoid" note F

Bmin7b5 => Locrian Scale, B to B, no alter, Char Notes D and A "Avoid" Note C.

**"Avoid" Note doesnt necassarily mean that you are not allowed to use it. Someone must be carefull on how to use and ussualy its used in weak beat and as a chromatic or in some cases to provide tension.

I hope my information are helpfull

Thnx

Good info. I didn't take the time to write this out, but this is what I started to say in example 2.

But I don't see why you would tell him to avoid any of those notes. All of the notes in each mode will sound fine over the chords you gave.

 

[Parakalo]

Bezo I am not trying to be the smart guy here I know exactly what you are trying to say. When talking about Avoid Notes and Characteristic Notes and etc etc I am trying to be helpfull to someone that seems to be a beginner.
And anyway when you use an E Major Scale over any of its diatonic chords practically it works but theoritically is wrong since your root of the scale is not the root of the chord

We can discuss about Harmony, rules and how to break the rules for 20 hours I guess thats not the point.
Anyway If you like harmony tell me what you think about the changes of "Giant Steps" (Coltrane).

Peace

 

[cribble]

Thanks for the info once again.

From my understanding, dom7 chords relate to that certain mode because of the flatten (or lowered) 7th note of that scale. Or a min7 relates to the scale having a flatten 3rd and 7th.

Is that correct? (i know some of the scales have augmented 4ths etc, so i have taken that into account).

 

[Parakalo]

Yeap thats correct

Major 7 Chords have a maj 3rd Perfect 5th and Maj 7
Minor Chords have a min 3 (b3) Perfect 5th and a minor 7 (b7)
Dom Chords have a Maj 3rd a Perfect Fifth and a Min 7 (b7)
Minor 7(b5) chords have a minor 3rd Diminished 5th (tritone - b5) and a min 7

All the above intervals are from the root of the chord

 

[Bezo]

Bezo I am not trying to be the smart guy here I know exactly what you are trying to say. When talking about Avoid Notes and Characteristic Notes and etc etc I am trying to be helpfull to someone that seems to be a beginner.
And anyway when you use an E Major Scale over any of its diatonic chords practically it works but theoritically is wrong since your root of the scale is not the root of the chord

I thought I did a good job of saying what I was trying to say.

I was a beginner once, and the very first way I was taught to solo was to use the home scale over a diatonic progression. Every note in that home scale serves as a chord tone or extension of all diatonic chords. You telling Cribble it's wrong hides many great sounds from him.

Theoretically, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that approach. There's no need for the root of scale to match the root of the chord unless that's the sound you want.

And I still don't understand why you would tell him to avoid any notes in a scale that matches the chord perfectly. I'd like to hear your explaination of why he should avoid G & B over Dmin7 for example. Those notes would extend the chord to imply Dmin11 and Dmin13.

We can discuss about Harmony, rules and how to break the rules for 20 hours I guess thats not the point.

I didn't encourage him to break the rules until the very end when I mentioned color tones. I don't understand why you think using the home scale over its diatonic chords is breaking the rules. But I guess we all learn differently.

Anyway If you like harmony tell me what you think about the changes of "Giant Steps" (Coltrane).

He made it sound good, and many have followed. It's an unstable but colorful sound. I wish I could be that innovative.

 

[dmorr]

Learn your scales and chords. Thats all you need. Jimmy Hendrix didn't know any of this, at all. He played with his heart man, its just a matter of what sounds right to you.