Quantization....????

C

Chew_Bear

New member
I know that people will quantize drums and percussion if thats the sound/style there after.

But....

1. Are there certain instruments and/or sounds that you should quantize all the time...??? (Drums for example)

2. Are there certain instruments and/or sounds that you should NOT quantize...???

Pads, leads, pianos, guitar, strings, winds, synths...pretty much anything that is 'melodic in nature' and needs to 'flow freely'.

3. Is quantization one of those things where you get to choose whether to apply it or not....regardless of what the instrument and/or sound is....???

4. Does the choice for quantization also depend on generes and/or styles of music...???

For example HipHop/R&B/Funk should NOT be quantized.....VS.....EDM/Dance where a 4/4 beat almost forces you to quantize in order to keep a steady beat.

5. Are there certain styles of music and/or situations which would require you to quantize almost everything in the song....???

Any tips and suggestions would be appreciated.
 
You're definitely overthinking this.

It's something you can hear by yourself obviously if it needs to be done or not. If you can't tell, then it either doesn't matter or you've done it right.
 
study the mechanics of the "groove"...there are tons of sources. your line of questioning is essentially asking for a dissertation on the rhythm and groove theory. btw the rhythmically differences between dance music and hip hop/RnB/etc. are not because of time signature. they are typically all in 4/4 time.
 
btw i strongly recommend a drummer by the name of benny greb. he has a dvd which is worth buying, but he did an in depth class on drumeo's youtube channel. he covers all this stuff in his dvd.
 
All of that comes from making beats whether or not to add or remove something. That's it.
Literally, it's best to have experience and theory than just theory alone to reinforce the knowledge gained from questions asked.

Worrying about something like that to an extent like that without even doing anything is just as bad as doing something without doing research in any amount.
 
Virtually all pop music, whether it's EDM, hip-hop, or whatever, is 4/4....that's a time signature, not a beat. You actually mean "4 on the floor" which is 4 evenly accented beats of the bass drum, with no swing...just "one-two-three-four". As opposed to "ONE-two-three-four" or "one-TWO-three-FOUR".

Factors that would make you decide to quantize:
- When you're "playing in" notes with a controller (rather than drawing them on the piano roll) and you suck at keeping time.
- When the style of music dictates that the beats be very even...like your example of four-on-the-floor...and you suck at keeping time
- You're doing rhythm instruments like drums, and to a lesser extent bass. These instruments define the rhythm of the song...so if you suck at keeping time, they should be quantized.
- If you want your music to sound like robots made it...definitely quantize.

Reasons to NOT quantize:
- Notice the theme? If you're really good at keeping time, you don't need to quantize.
- If you're decent at keeping time, you might not need to quantize, and it will add a subtle human element. (Maybe you don't want that)
- If you don't just want a human element, but a distinct swing or groove, then quantizing will remove that...so don't. I am just okay at keeping time, and I love a groovy beat...so rather than quantize, I lay it down, and then manually shift notes. Usually, I can get away with simply making sure the first beat hits on the beginning of the measure...then things don't drift off too much and hopefully the swing is maintained.
- Some instruments, like pads, simply do not have a distinct beginning and end...so unless you totally and utterly suck at keeping time, you don't need to quantize those. Other instruments...like a guitar solo, for example...yes, you might want that to *intentionally* flow a bit more freely than the underlying beat. You're still probably going to want that instrument to nail the beginning of the bar, if not every measure, once every few. The key word is "intentional" which means you're doing it artistically and expressively...and not just because you suck at keeping time.

I don't think you're overthinking this, you're asking good questions...but you do need a trained ear and a trained rhythm sense which only comes from experience. Sucking at keeping time means quantizing is your one and only option, and that's super limiting.
 
Last edited:
Quantizing isn't all or nothing. You can quantize just selected parts to whatever setting you like.
Personally, about the only performance style that doesn't cope well with quantizing is certain types of trills, doppler effects, and stuff like hammered dulcimer playing. Pretty much everything else can be quantized safely if you just make sure you know what you're doing.

Typically you can't just select an entire piece and expect to quantize it. You have to drag selections to be closer to the gridlines and THEN quantize it and it usually can't be the entire piece. Also, if you have any triplets or tuplets, they have to be quantized separately to their own setting.

The thing about quantizing is that people that don't understand how it works are notorious for saying that it destroys performances.
Really it doesn't if it's done right.

Also, you can still play a swing and quantize it without losing the swing. You just have to find a quantization setting that's compatible with the swinging notes. It's similar to the tuplets issue.
 
nystagmus said:
the thing about quantizing is that people that don't understand how it works are notorious for saying that it destroys performances.
Really it doesn't if it's done right.

Also, you can still play a swing and quantize it without losing the swing. You just have to find a quantization setting that's compatible with the swinging notes. It's similar to the tuplets issue.
Click to expand...
^this
 
You're asking important questions, that's good. I also agree with nystagmus. You don't have to quantize entire pieces of music. Some genres however rely on it more. Being a Hip Hop/Trip Hop Producer, I like a little off beat aspect to my work (quantization makes it sound really computerized, but I'm going for an authentic vibe). You can quantize anything really, being the melody, b-line, beat, etc. But use proper mixing to make sure this secret "effect" isn't too obvious. ;)
 
Sorry to make the thread somewhat more convoluted.....

If deciding to forgo quantization in order to get away from the 'robotic' nature/sound and also so you can find your own groove and rhythm.....

1. Should you move the midi notes by hand/free form....???

....OR....

2. Should you choose to use a groove/swing setting....???
 
Chew_Bear said:
Sorry to make the thread somewhat more convoluted.....

If deciding to forgo quantization in order to get away from the 'robotic' nature/sound and also so you can find your own groove and rhythm.....

1. Should you move the midi notes by hand/free form....???

....OR....

2. Should you choose to use a groove/swing setting....???
Click to expand...
You should only forgo quantization if you can actually keep time while playing. Too many people misunderstand quantization. When I used to deejay, people would hand me tracks that I just couldn't fuccin' mix because their drum timing was shit. Snares drifting off the 2, hi-hats going every which way, etc. Producers think "no quatization" means "human-feeling rhythm" but what it really means is "sloppy-ass drum patterns" from the sound of it. Seriously, quatization does not have to equal "robotic, stiff-sounding" rhythm if you truly understand rhythm (and use a metronome for more than nailing the downbeat).
 
If you want to understand the implications of bad rhythm in an actual musical situation, watch this:

This is what a sloppy, unquantized drum groove feels like to people who have to work with that shit.
 
My rhythm is pretty good. But I still quantize almost everything. It's not because I don't have the skill, but because it saves me time. I can lay down a percussion pattern in one go, instead of practicing for ten minutes and then recording five or six takes.


It also may depend some on the genre of music. If you want a grungy hip-hop beat, then yeah, you probably don't want to quantize. Not because you want the kick off, but a lot of grungy beats have funky timing in the middle of the measure that's not exactly swung either. It's just pleasantly off. The right kind of sloppy.

If you're working in pop music, I'd say soft quantize everything. And for EDM, hard quantizing is probably best.


Remember, quantizing isn't all or nothing. Most DAWs and even many virtual instruments have a randomize function. If you want a more organic feel, try raising the randomizer until just below where it starts to sound sloppy and amateurish. (I raise the "detune" and "age" faders on my virtual pianos to just below where each sounds obnoxious - makes them sound less plastic.)

Also, Pro Tools and maybe others have a range to exclude: say your percussion hits are not perfectly on, but most are close. You can set a range to say "quantize everything except hits within 12% of where they should be". That could maintain a lot of life in an organic-sounding beat too.


Quantizing is all about delivering a consistent performance. The public didn't care in the 60's. But they certainly do now! Quantizing is a tool to keep musicians consistent. But, consistent doesn't have to mean to the grid. For example, bass guitar usually sounds better playing a little bit behind the beat instead of on it. So ... if you're using a VI for bass, try quantizing it, disabling the grid, then scooting the entire performance back a little until it fits better. And pads usually have such slow attack, I usually quantize them and then scoot them forward, so the swell hits at the start of the measure, not partway through it. (One could speed up the attack, but then it sounds too abrupt and loses its silkiness.)

Of course, a good bassist knows to play behind the beat, and a good keyboardist knows to play pads in front of the beat. But we do what we do because we want to create more music more easily, not because we want to master each instrument in physical form. Quantizing is a valuable tool if used correctly.
 
Pumpthrust said:
You should only forgo quantization if you can actually keep time while playing. Too many people misunderstand quantization. When I used to deejay, people would hand me tracks that I just couldn't fuccin' mix because their drum timing was shit. Snares drifting off the 2, hi-hats going every which way, etc. Producers think "no quatization" means "human-feeling rhythm" but what it really means is "sloppy-ass drum patterns" from the sound of it. Seriously, quatization does not have to equal "robotic, stiff-sounding" rhythm if you truly understand rhythm (and use a metronome for more than nailing the downbeat).
Click to expand...

What do you typically dj?
 
Epsilon-144 said:
What do you typically dj?
Click to expand...
I dj'ed from 1998 to 2005, quit because I was being pushed out by the larger, more established dj's at the top and the shithead "iPod/laptop" dj's at the bottom.
I mostly spun underground/indie hiphop, which explains my situation. Most of the "keep it real, represent, turntablist, I keep the Krylon in my Jansport" that did survive turned to ironic rap-classic rock mashups for the hipster crowd, or went full mainstream top 40 and never looked back. I did neither. Glad I moved on-don't miss it at all. When keeping it real goes wrong.
 
All my drums are 100% on the grid because I don't have a MIDI controller and I've never felt the need to randomize them/swing them apart from writing parts in triplets.


The actual position of notes you choose and drum sounds is way way way more important. Varying volume appropriately (NOT RANDOMLY) is also more important for getting groove in hi-hats/percussion

In terms of actual settings, if you are quantizing, it makes sense to quantize to the smallest note you are playing, which is usually semiquavers (16th notes), but could be eighth note (triplets) if you are playing a jazzy swung piece or compound time. Any kind of triplet rhythms will screw things up if you are quantizing to 16th notes. You get some hip-hop which has swung sixteenth notes, in which case it you should quantize to sixteenth note triplets.
 
Last edited:
Damn...sorry to make the thread even longer and more convoluted...

Something else popped up into my head.....

If your quantizing all your sounds/instruments 100% to the grid....

1. How do you avoid "Phase Cancellation" when you can have upwards of 10 + tracks...and...you have multiple sounds/instruments that start on the same exact count/beat...???

So...For example the other week...I was making a beat and I had upwards of about 10 tracks all 100% on the grid. The most sounds/instruments I ever had on any 'individual count/beat' was at least 4 - 5 tracks.

From my ear...I could not tell or know if I had any phase cancellation going on between all of those sounds/instruments that were exactly on the same count/beat.

I do know what phase cancellation is and what it sounds like (or lack of sound actually...lol)

So...How do you find out if you have phase cancellation going on because your intentionally putting your sounds 100% on the grid on every beat/count...???

Damn...I'm curious now. I'm gonna have to do a little test and try to 'create' a phase cancellation.
 
Last edited:
Also...Since I am a newbie (and also for all the newbies reading)...

Obviously...Its 'easier' to start learning the art of music production and making beats by putting your sounds/instruments 100% on the grid...right...??? As that's what I am doing now and my original assumption is that this is how all producers start...correct...???

Therefore...

1. How does a newbie know when he/she has finally mastered the 100% grid'ed beats (sounds good/pleasing/in rhythm) and has finally surpassed the stage of learning how the grid works for rhythm/beats...???

2. How does a newbie...'gradually' shift into learning how to incorporate swing/groove to their 100% grid'ed beats if that's how they initially started/learned (in my case)...???

As in...

A. Do you just choose and incorporate whatever groove setting from your collection (Ableton groove pool in my case) and just see what it does to the rhythm/beat...???

....OR....

B. Should you "manually" start shifting individual notes/clips/sounds in forward or backward 'increments' and than see what that does to the rhythm/sound...???

Can the movement of clips/sounds...also be applied to 'groups' of sounds/instruments that you feel should start together but still not be 100% on a count/beat...???

For example...moving a kick, snare and hihat forward (together as a group) a little bit ahead of the bass and lead instrument.

Is it as simple as...you can have any combination of sounds/instruments, anywhere on the grid.....regardless of grid quantization or groove/swing setting, as long as it sounds good/pleasing and in rhythm to what's inside your head...???
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top