Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 24

Thread: neo soul chords/scales/progressions

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    28
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Sign in to disable this ad
    Tritone subs sidestep the tonic.In the traditional II V I progression the tritone substitution would be IIb (often a dominant seventh with added upper partials)

    The neosoul sound is just extended chords with plenty of chromatic substitions.Rather than

    Em Am B7
    Em7/9 Bb7 Am7 F7

    The Bb7 sidesteps to Am and the F7 sidesteps to Em. The voicings are equally important too.In fact allthis tends to sound like an exercise in jarring harmony without correct voicing.I'd voice F7 thus:

    F Eb Eb (G )A D

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Sydney Australia
    Posts
    20,197
    Thanks
    38
    Thanked 605 Times in 433 Posts
    actually, no, a tritone sub does not necessarily sidestep the tonic - the usual usage is in replacing V in a ii-V-I and ii-V-i progression i.e. it is more likely to be used to replace a dominant chord than the tonic chord - whether the dominant is a temporary dominant due to secondary dominants coming into play or a real dominant: in my examples that would be using the Eb7 instead of Am7 and using Db7 instead of G7 - i.e. it's usage is in chordal planing - "moving by semitone"
    BC: I've been making music since Before Computers were common in music
    Abnormal thoughts and insights available here
    Tutorials and other ideas available here
    My SoundCloud

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    28
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by bandcoach View Post
    actually, no, a tritone sub does not necessarily sidestep the tonic - the usual usage is in replacing V in a ii-V-I and ii-V-i progression i.e. it is more likely to be used to replace a dominant chord than the tonic chord - whether the dominant is a temporary dominant due to secondary dominants coming into play or a real dominant: in my examples that would be using the Eb7 instead of Am7 and using Db7 instead of G7 - i.e. it's usage is in chordal planing - "moving by semitone"
    Thats its primary use. Im just trying to reduce the trick to the bare essentials. You're right though and your erudition knows no bound. I kid. The sub basically substitutes the perfect fourth for a tritonic interval. That is reminiscent of the lydian raised 4th which is openly and notoriously jazzy. So the root of the sub could be any chord. Say F to B of any kind. The other point oft missed is that the actual substitution need not be a dominant. It became that because it acts as a sort of secondary dominant. However it can be minor 7th Major etc well I made that up and its not true but shoot and you might score
    Last edited by of zedsupreme; 09-27-2012 at 06:11 PM.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Sydney Australia
    Posts
    20,197
    Thanks
    38
    Thanked 605 Times in 433 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by of zedsupreme View Post
    Tritone subs sidestep the tonic.In the traditional II V I progression the tritone substitution would be IIb (often a dominant seventh with added upper partials)

    The neosoul sound is just extended chords with plenty of chromatic substitions.Rather than

    Em Am B7
    Em7/9 Bb7 Am7 F7
    So, you are saying that the tritone sub can be inserted into a progression, rather than replace an exiting chord in the progression - atypical use, as it is no longer a substitution but an alteration to the progression

    The Bb7 sidesteps to Am and the F7 sidesteps to Em. The voicings are equally important too. In fact all this tends to sound like an exercise in jarring harmony without correct voicing.I'd voice F7 thus:

    F Eb Eb (G )A D
    So you are saying it should be used as ii-V-bII :kind of defeats the purpose of using it then, as it's primary purpose in jazz and other styles has been to provide semitonal chordal planing. In fact, if we consider the related concept of the Neapolitan 6th (N6) which is a bII chord in 1st inversion and whose sole purpose is to move to V - a tritone away - this is more akin to what you are describing and is not considered to be a true tritone substitution, as it is a chromatic substitute for ii or IV - it is notated as N6-V-i|I

    As for voicing F7 - once you add the 9 and the 13 it is no longer a dom7, but a dom 13th. And, yes while it can sub for the lower level extension, it also functions in its own way in both traditional and jazz harmony having voice leading consequences beyond the dom7 function....

    Quote Originally Posted by of zedsupreme View Post
    Thats its primary use. Im just trying to reduce the trick to the bare essentials.
    bare essentials is that replaces a dominant (or minor, I concede) chord in a ii-v|V-i|I scrap progression, by which I mean analysing the function of any 3 successive chords in isolation to identify it as being of the class ii-v|V-i|I, like so ii-bII-i|I

    You're right though and your erudition knows no bound. I kid.
    Are you seriously saying that you are just having a go for the sake of winding me up

    The sub basically substitutes the perfect fourth for a tritonic interval.
    Um, it substitutes the movement of V-I (ii-V is the same) by moving by semitone downwards rather than a 4th upwards or a 5th downwards

    That is reminiscent of the lydian raised 4th which is openly and notoriously jazzy.
    Yes, except that it is not a reference to the scale form but a chordal movement which is less strictly defined. Also the lydian does not need to be further qualified as the #4 is implicit in the naming.

    So the root of the sub could be any chord. Say F to B of any kind. The other point oft missed is that the actual substitution need not be a dominant. It became that because it acts as a sort of secondary dominant. However it can be minor 7th Major etc well I made that up and its not true but shoot and you might score
    So, you are essentially pushing the view that the use of N6-V-i|I is how a tritone sub works...


    Notational usage lesson
    I used the shorthand i|I and v|V to indicate that either the first or second chord could appear in the progression but not both, i.e. it replaces writing

    ii-v-i
    ii-V-i
    ii-v-I
    ii-V-I
    Last edited by bandcoach; 10-19-2013 at 05:04 AM.
    BC: I've been making music since Before Computers were common in music
    Abnormal thoughts and insights available here
    Tutorials and other ideas available here
    My SoundCloud

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    28
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    The gist of our respective arguments is that the tritone sub provides semitonal planing vs the tritonic sub in a more abstract impressionistic sense. I agree that the theory books have it laid out as a means to create tonal convergence through semitonal planing. The G7 substituted for Db7 creates several lines of convergence not least the common 3rd and 7th but the Gb parent scale or Blydian both of which have semitonal relationships to the dominant and tonic respectively.
    Im talking about the sub in a literal sense. Using the interval of the tritone to create a lydian intervallic relationship or even using it to bring out the augmented fourth/dimminishes fifth. The former is agreed upon by mutual consent while the latter is an intrerpretation to widen the scope.
    I know that that stands in rude contravention to every accepted notion of the sub as a replacement, but my method of working is to emphasise the intervallic relationship that exists.
    In Dm G C the tritone sub is Dm Db C , but a jazz musician is going to hear that augmented interval because the G7 is implied as standard. Im then extending that throughout the system so that the tritone sub can be used anywhere within a scale to creatre a similar effect.

    The sub is as much a concept as it is a cadentrial progression and it can be projected throughout a tonal system

    Ab7 G C
    Em Eb7 Dm Db7 C
    Db7 Ab7 C

    and so on and so forth. It is my opinion that the original chord associations remain and thus treating the tritonic sub as being suggestive of an interval is a defensible practise

    Robert Glasper uses a similar reworking of the sub. Often he resolves to the fourth via stepwise motion: Bm7 BbM7. This almost instantaneously evokes the dreamy detachment of the genre
    Last edited by of zedsupreme; 09-28-2012 at 03:22 AM.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Sydney Australia
    Posts
    20,197
    Thanks
    38
    Thanked 605 Times in 433 Posts
    I see, your argument is about interval usage (which is only part of the application of the tritone sub), rather than chordal usage...

    Specifically the 7-4 pair in the dominant 7th chord and therefore being used as the axis from which to spin off to other tonal centers ala Wolf Marshall's tritone axis to move to key areas such as



    So with the Chords G7 and Db7 we have the same tritone pair - B-F or F-Cb - as the active elements in resolving to either C or Gb. If we then consider Bb7 and E7, we get the other active tritone pair G#-D or D-Ab. We can combine these four notes to make a second active dim7 chord based on B-D-F-Ab, which in turn can resolve to any one of C or A or Gb or Eb
    BC: I've been making music since Before Computers were common in music
    Abnormal thoughts and insights available here
    Tutorials and other ideas available here
    My SoundCloud

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    11
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    bandcoach for president

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Zama, Japan
    Posts
    106
    Thanks
    4
    Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts

    Easy Neo Soul Chords Progressions

    A really good way to get some instant deep Neo Soul sounding chords is to actually bring the 9th or 11th to the front as a bass note, similar to a slash chord. It doesn't matter what chords you play, even typical pop chords.

    Check it out below and attached.

    Smooth R&B Slash Chords - Soulful Keys - Neo Soul and R&B Production
    Attached Files Attached Files

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    74
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 12 Times in 11 Posts
    might wanna sticky this one. looks like you spent a good deal of time explaining this one bandcoach. good info btw.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    1
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    so this thread is old but if anyone out there is still looking for info on how to play neosoul, something that's key (esp for keys/gtr) is making sure to voice your chords the exact same way, using way too much parallel movement. A lot cats i've played with (esp jazz keys) have gorgeous voicings they pull out when we jam on some neosoul, but a lot of the church cats i play with will move their whole hands in the same position to the next chord, and in my opinion that's more of the sound you're gonna be looking for. For example, if youre gonna play the ever cliche I^7 IV^7, play them both voiced 1-7-5-9-3 (F-E-C-G-A to Bb-A-F-C-D) instead of moving 1-7-5-9-3 (F-E-C-G-A) to something like 1-3-5-7-9 (Bb-D-F-A-C). I know those voicings suck, but you catch the drift. Also, if you're playing with a bass player, feel free to leave root position at the door and drop fifths like you had too much to drink. It's also more about making sure that you're fitting in the groove than harmony. You can literally play triads & make it sound dope. I hope that helps someone out there who got lost in the ever-going argument about the use of tritones vs napoleon 6ths & secondary dominants and whatnot.
    Last edited by phillips.dylan; 10-09-2017 at 08:54 PM.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •