Is my counterpoint correct?

S

scrapheaper

Moderator
I'm in the process of learning species counterpoint and I just wanted to check that I have understood everything correctly.

Attached is a pic of a two voice 16 bar counterpoint I have made as an exercise. If someone who understands counterpoint could give it a rough check for obvious mistakes I would be very grateful.

I do appreciate that stylistically, it's terrible, but I am just trying to understand the rules atm.

Here is also an audio example of said counterpoint.


Thanks in advance.
 

Attachments

  • Counterpoint_png-1.png
    Counterpoint_png-1.png
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you need to load the image again all that comes down is a thumbnail - ps when dealing with counterpoint it is as important (if not more so) to assess the actual written notes as it is to assess the audio, as a visual inspection will show the rules which have been broken whereas an audio inspection may miss entirely particularly if the notes of the counterpoint line are moving fast

which text are you using to learn this from?
 
bandcoach said:
you need to load the image again all that comes down is a thumbnail - ps when dealing with counterpoint it is as important (if not more so) to assess the actual written notes as it is to assess the audio, as a visual inspection will show the rules which have been broken whereas an audio inspection may miss entirely particularly if the notes of the counterpoint line are moving fast

which text are you using to learn this from?
Click to expand...
That's odd... I can see the sheet music full size when I click on the thumbnail, even when I'm logged out. What am I doing wrong?

I'm not learning from any text. I have been steadily watching through the art of counterpoint videos on youtube, then complimenting that with whatever i can find on google.

It's a bit of a haphazard approach, but I'm uncertain about how seriously to take this counterpoint thing because all my music is just a hobby to me, and also because so many people don't actually learn it, so it can't be that essential.
 
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those youtubes are still a text - which ones?

your image is loading fine now (did not when I last wrote) also which line is the given melody and which line is your counterpoint?

finally your audio does not exist
 
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bandcoach said:
those youtubes are still a text - which ones?

your image is loading fine now (did not when I last wrote) also which line is the given melody and which line is your counterpoint?

finally your audio does not exist
Click to expand...

I don't know the specifics of the different sets of counterpoint rules. I think it's 16th century species counterpoint rules, (Fux?) but I'm not very sure as I haven't completed the series yet. He hasn't mentioned any specific text, just that it's a 16th century method.

The lower line is supposedly my cantus firmus and the upper line is my counterpoint.

I will have a look at the audio now.
Edit: the audio is a private track, so you need to be logged into soundcloud to hear it.
 
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I do login when I go to soundcloud so that is not the problem

a link to the youtube (I do not like guessing which series you might mean)
 
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so, I would be interested in seeing interim species for the given cantus firmus

i.e. 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th before viewing a 5th species

- only if you grasp the first 4 is the 5th worth trying and and assessing

- what I do note from the one you have given us is that it is all over the place and hardly following any of the expectations for a counterpoint
 
Really? That bad?

Guess I've got a lot more work to do. :D

As far as I was aware, I hadn't broken any rules or conventions except:
- distance between the two voices: less than a 12th (I didn't know whether this was a hard and fast rule, or just necessary when writing for lots of voices, and either way, I couldn't see the point in it unless you were writing for a choir or instruments with limited ranges)
- time signature is usually simple time (more of a convention than a rule: I wanted to see how the principles transferred across to compound time in this example)
- number of counterpoint notes per cantus note in third species: usually four, but I see no reason why 5 or 6 could not be used, as long as they are not syncopated.

Could you please perhaps give a few examples of rules that I've broken, (you don't have to point them all out) so I can go and re-study those rules more thoroughly?
 
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I didn't say that, I just think that unless you have the earlier species assessed/reviewed you may be wasting your time....
 
I dithered about posting this or sending it a s private message

However, I think that it will underscore and reinforce some things for others, so in the spirit of teaching all, herewith my comments, corrections and suggestions:

Counterpoint exercises
Species 1

Your original line...

sh-cf-cp-01.png


[mp3]http://www.bandcoach.org/fp/audio/sh-cf-cp-01.mp3[/mp3]

Parallel unisons are not independent. The point of all counterpoint is to create independent lines within the same harmonic framework

My corrected line...

sh-cf-cp-02.png


[mp3]http://www.bandcoach.org/fp/audio/sh-cf-cp-02.mp3[/mp3]

Species 2

Your original line...

sh-cf-cp-03.png


[mp3]http://www.bandcoach.org/fp/audio/sh-cf-cp-03.mp3[/mp3]

In all species of counterpoint a parallel 8ve or 5th or movement from 5ths to 8ves and vice versa may not occur in any of the notes in the CP against any two consecutive notes of the cantus firmus.
In your example above the 5th to Unison in bar 1, 5th to 8ve in bar 2 are all examples of this parallel movement.
Your direct parallel movement of 8ve to 8ve in the last two notes is permitted in all species of CP, though it is preferable to approach such by contrary motion rather than similar motion.

My corrected line...

sh-cf-cp-04.png


[mp3]http://www.bandcoach.org/fp/audio/sh-cf-cp-04.mp3[/mp3]

Species 3

Your original line...

sh-cf-cp-05.png


[mp3]http://www.bandcoach.org/fp/audio/sh-cf-cp-05.mp3[/mp3]

The final note should sound at the same time as the cantus firmus, not be anticipated; even though this is a dissonance that resolves to a consonance (7th to 8ve), it is not resolved effectively. The stricture from Species 1 as to the last note of the CP being the 7th of the scale still stands
Parallel 8ves and 5ths occur in bar 2 (8ve to 5th) and, bar 3 (5th to 8ve).

My corrected line...

sh-cf-cp-06.png


[mp3]http://www.bandcoach.org/fp/audio/sh-cf-cp-06.mp3[/mp3]

There is a contrary motion between the 5th above the D in bar 3 to the 8ve C’s in bar 4 - this is permitted.

Species 4

Your original line...

sh-cf-cp-07.png


[mp3]http://www.bandcoach.org/fp/audio/sh-cf-cp-07.mp3[/mp3]

The unison in bar 3 lessens the sense of independent lines, as noted in species 1.
You may only break the Species by reverting to Species 2 rhythm (2 against 1) so you may have had a possible alternative as the following

sh-cf-cp-08.png


[mp3]http://www.bandcoach.org/fp/audio/sh-cf-cp-08.mp3[/mp3]

though you would have been better to do this instead

sh-cf-cp-09.png


[mp3]http://www.bandcoach.org/fp/audio/sh-cf-cp-09.mp3[/mp3]

Altering the cantus firmus to remove problems is never an option when working counterpoint exercises.

If we were to correct the other deficiencies in the last minor correction, we might get something like this (not that CF has been restored to its original state):

sh-cf-cp-11.png


[mp3]http://www.bandcoach.org/fp/audio/sh-cf-cp-11.mp3[/mp3]

My corrected line...

sh-cf-cp-10.png


[mp3]http://www.bandcoach.org/fp/audio/sh-cf-cp-10.mp3[/mp3]

The direct parallel movement of 8ve to 8ve in the last two notes of the cantus firmus is permitted in all species of CP, though it is preferable to approach such by contrary motion rather than similar motion.
 
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Thank you so much bandcoach, wouldn't think you'd still do it what with me being an ignorant a******e on other threads and what.

I can't believe I actually used parallel unisons. That is the most stupid obvious mistake it's possible to make.

Other major things I didn't realise at the time of writing were that you can't follow octaves with fifths and vice versa. I will post more as I examine further.
 
The thing is that all students (and teachers) are occasionally A-holes, both know when to be humble or to ignore the drama and just get on with the job in hand.

I may have to correct one or two statements I made above about 8ves and 5ths

the stricture is movement to an octave or 5th from either via direct motion (parallel motion); movement by oblique or contrary motion is permitted
 
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I think the source of most of my mistakes was the fact that I didn't realise parallel fifths/octaves/unisons applied to following fifths with octaves or similar. I knew you couldn't follow fifths with fifths, and octaves with octaves, but I thought for some reason fifths would be considered a contrast to octaves.

My breaking of species in bar 2 of 4th species was an attempt at something called interrupted resolution?

Parallel unisons were either a bug in musescore (happens a lot) or just total blindness.

In 4th species, you say you have approached an octave via contrary motion, yet the c.f. goes downwards from G to D, and the c.p. also goes downwards from E to D: is this not similar motion, or am I missing something?
 
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scrapheaper said:
I think the source of most of my mistakes was the fact that I didn't realise parallel fifths/octaves/unisons applied to following fifths with octaves or similar. I knew you couldn't follow fifths with fifths, and octaves with octaves, but I thought for some reason fifths would be considered a contrast to octaves.
Click to expand...

it is not the movement from 5ths to 8ves or the movement from 8ves to 5ths that is prohibited, but moving in the same direction: from a 5th to an 8ve and vice versa

My breaking of species in bar 2 of 4th species was an attempt at something called interrupted resolution?
Click to expand...

yes but you do it on the on the beat (You may only break the Species by reverting to Species 2 rhythm (2 against 1) )not by prefacing 5th species movement

Parallel unisons were either a bug in musescore (happens a lot) or just total blindness.
Click to expand...

you probably did not register them as they were on different staves, one of the reasons I reduced them back to a single staff: to highlight the possible flaws as we go.....

In 4th species, you say you have approached an octave via contrary motion, yet the c.f. goes downwards from G to D, and the c.p. also goes downwards from E to D: is this not similar motion, or am I missing something?
Click to expand...

It is an error caused by copying and pasting - I am trialling a new abcNotation editor and learning how some things can work better or worse in it - it escaped my attention when proofing

corrected now

as is two other non-errors in species 2

your movement from 8ve to 5th in bars 2-3 is by contrary motion and so permitted and your movement from 5th to octave is also permitted as it is by oblique motion
 
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