I think im finally getting my head around modes (music theory)!

N

nattwalls

Guest
Hi,

Modes have baffled me for a while now. Not the patterns the follow, but WHY and WHEN to use them. So in an attempt to understand them more Im gonna make some statements. Can those with the knowledge confirm if they are correct?

1. The key you play in is usually determined by the first note/chord in a melody/riff.

2. Keys and scales each have their own distinct tone.

3. If I wanted to keep in the tone of a particular key, but have a starting point for my progression/melody, other than that of the key note, I would use a mode.

ie, if i like the sound of Dmaj, but wanted to start my progression on E, i would be writing in the Dorian.

Is that it? For so long the use of modes has baffled me. I have plenty of reference point to the actual modes and their patterns but none to where they come in useful.

I someone could help clear up this confusion it would be much appreciated.

peace
nattwalls

ps also are the mode patterns the same for minor keys?
 
yup u basically got it..

and the modal system is universal.. so it applies to every key...

I don't even think I remember em all lol!

phrygian
locrian
dorian
....

ummm lol looks like I gotta study
 
nattwalls said:
also are the mode patterns the same for minor keys?

Well, if you take Cmin(Using MM Descending) for example, start from Eb and use those intervals (half-steps: 2-2-1-2-2-2-1) then change the key to C, you end up back to Cmaj.

OR

Take Cmin(Using MM Descending), start from F this time and use those intervals (half-steps: 2-1-2-2-2-1-2) then change the key to C again, you end up with the mode "Dorian" in the key of C.

So really, your already using them.

Once you know what your working with, dont be scard to use it in a different way, not all 7 keys have to be used, you can make your own scale and see how it sounds. For example, Eb,F,G,Bb

Hope this helps.
 
Disasster said:
Hope this helps.

nope sorry! youve just confused me!

are you trying to say that i can switch from Cmin to Cmaj if i starta Eb(min, id imagine??!) and follow the intervals for the Dorian mode.

in your send paragraph, if you start of F surely youd be in the lydian (2 2 2 1 2 2 1) not 2 1 2 2 2 1 2?

and most importantly what is MM descending?

aargh! i thought i was getting the hang of it!
 
nattwalls said:
nope sorry! youve just confused me!

are you trying to say that i can switch from Cmin to Cmaj if i starta Eb(min, id imagine??!) and follow the intervals for the Dorian mode.

in your send paragraph, if you start of F surely youd be in the lydian (2 2 2 1 2 2 1) not 2 1 2 2 2 1 2?

and most importantly what is MM descending?

aargh! i thought i was getting the hang of it!

Sorry for the confusion.

Melodic Minor Descending is what i ment when i said MM.

You can switch from any key if you want to, but it wont allways sound good. If you want to switch from Cmin to a Maj, your best bet is Ebmaj because the relative minor of Ebmaj is Cmin, which makes them have the most in common. Which in this case of using MMD, all the notes are the same, but if you use C Harmonic Minor, there would be 2 notes that are different between the two, and if you used MM Ascending, there again would be two notes different.

http://www.looknohands.com/chordhouse/piano/
 
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does the same apply to modes in the natural minor and harmonic minor?
 
All modes are, is taking one key of a scale, starting on a different note within that key , and use those intervals to come up with a new scale which can then have 12 different keys. There for you can apply it to a lot of things and come up with alot of scales, some will sound better then others.

EX. Cmaj - C,D,E,F,G,A,B

Say you want to start on "D", you would then take those intervals (half-steps: 2-1-2-2-2-1-2) which you know is the "Dorian" Mode.

If you want to change to the key to C, then the notes would be C,D,Eb,F,G,A,A#

Now lets go a little further and use Cmin (Harmonic Minor) - C,D,Eb,F,G,Ab,B

Say you want to start on "Eb", you would then take those intervals (half-steps: 2-2-1-3-1-2-1)

If you want to change to the key to C, then the notes would be C,D,E,F,Ab,A,B
 
^can u explain this a bit more, i think I almost have it

so the intervals of c major scale is

c d e f g a b

which is

2 2 1 2 2 2 1

so if I use B would that not be

B F# G A B C#
 
nattwalls said:
Hi,

Modes have baffled me for a while now. Not the patterns the follow, but WHY and WHEN to use them. So in an attempt to understand them more Im gonna make some statements. Can those with the knowledge confirm if they are correct?

1. The key you play in is usually determined by the first note/chord in a melody/riff.

2. Keys and scales each have their own distinct tone.

3. If I wanted to keep in the tone of a particular key, but have a starting point for my progression/melody, other than that of the key note, I would use a mode.

ie, if i like the sound of Dmaj, but wanted to start my progression on E, i would be writing in the Dorian.

Is that it? For so long the use of modes has baffled me. I have plenty of reference point to the actual modes and their patterns but none to where they come in useful.

I someone could help clear up this confusion it would be much appreciated.

peace
nattwalls

ps also are the mode patterns the same for minor keys?

1. Yes

2. You cant tell the difference in keys inless you have perfect pitch, but scales yes if you develope your relative pitch. For example, I cant tell the difference between somethin in Cmaj and Dmaj inless I hear the 2 songs rite after each other. But I can tell a Dorian scale from a Mixolydian (doesnt matter wat key).

3. Yes, basically a mode is when you use a different tonal point as the main root note besides the actual root of the scale. for example, an E phyrgian chord progression example would be :|Em///|Fmaj///|Gmaj///|////|:

Fmaj is not in the key of Eminor which is why we need to use a mode over it...but, all Em, Fmaj and Gmaj are in the key of C (E phrygian). This mode has a 'Egyptian' sound. It will help you recognize the sounds of modes by putting a characteristic with it. For example the characteristics i have found the to have is

Ionian (major scale) - happy, sounds normal
Dorian - Mystical sounding and sad
Phyrgian - Egyptian
Lydian - Mystacal, dreamy, airy almost, very happy
Mixolydian - Folkish like Irish folk stuff
Aeolian (minor scale) - Sad and dark
Locrian - Dark and evil

REALIZE - there is only one note difference seperating the modes from the parent scale...

the two parent scales would be Ionian (major scale) and Aeolian (minor scale)

The 3 major modes are
Ionian Lydian Mixolydian

look at all these scales together next to each other in the same roote note

Ionian - C D E F G A B C

Lydian - C D E F# G A B C

Mixolydian - C D E F G A Bb C

Ionian is the normal scale, thats fine...Lydian has a #4th, BUTTT tecnically C lydian is a Gmajor scale started on C (| G A B ((C D E F# G A B C)) D E F# G|)

Mixolydian is a major scale with a b7th. C mixo is the same as Fmajor (| F G A Bb ((C D E F G A Bb C)) D E F

So you think about it easilly as Fmajor started on C, but realize that it is really Cmajor scale with a b7 for a different flavor...technically going out of key but it still sounds okay to your ear because it is used to it u understand?

To make a chord progression really stand out, modal progressions are usually only 2 chords..the more chords you add, the more tendency your ear wants to hear the original major scale as the root note (if you were playin Cmixo progression with 6 chords in the progression your ear would want to hear it come to a rest at Fmajor).

So 2 chord progressions is where you should start...but to have the modal sound in the progression you must add the 'alterened' note in a chord.....ill do examples in Cmixo and Lydian.

Mixo progression - Cmaj Bbmaj

Lydian - Cmaj Dmaj

Sorry if this was very confusing go to www.ibreathemusic.com or www.musictheory.net to learn more
 
Disasster said:
Sorry for the confusion.

If you want to switch from Cmin to a Maj, your best bet is Ebmaj because the relative minor of Ebmaj is Cmin, which makes them have the most in common.

http://www.looknohands.com/chordhouse/piano/

Yes, but in order to go to Eb major, often times, the "V (5)" of the new key is presented before the tonal shift, because if you just play Eb after Cmin, then, to some ears it could just sound like bIIImaj. But if you play a Bb7 before the Eb than the Eb is DEFINITELY the new tonal center (assuming the Bb7 is at the end of the phrase and the Eb the beginning of a new phrase). You could also use E7 to go to Eb7 as a technique called tritone substitution. There are a multitude of ways to get around the different tonal centers!
 
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