Guitar Theory Question (regarding caged system)

Bigwon · Jul 11, 2013

hiya folks!

So I've been playing guitar for awhile and had just decided to get more into the music theory.
I found the caged system very helpful and have so far worked out the 5 chords and scales throughout the fret board.

I found when playing a song in the key of D (using D shape at the end of the neck), using the caged system I could go up and down the fret board and get that major/minor scale Celticy/blue grassy sound. But I can also play the D shape on the 5th fret to get that bluesier/Jazzier sound as opposed to playing the A shape when following the caged system.

Then I play the A blues shape on the 5th to hit those blue notes. (not really relevant but kind of is)

I'm just curious about what makes The D sound right when repeated on the 1st and 5th fret. It doesn't sound right on any of the others (3rd,7th,9th)

many thanks!

bandcoach · Jul 11, 2013

Understanding your question, I think, is going to be crucial to giving you a good answer here.

First up I don't think that the D is at the 1st fret, but the 2nd fret (otherwise it would be Db/C#)

At the 5th fret that "D" shape is an F chord as long as you only play the top three strings - so if you are playing in blues oriented styling this makes sense (D-F-G-G#/Ab-A-C-D is the blues scale).

At the 7th fret the "D" shape is a G chord and at the 9th fret it is an A chord.

Now if you play more than just the top three strings you end up playing G[sub]/D[/sub] and A[sub]/D[/sub] (or worse by adding in the A below that as well), which can sound "wrong" or incomplete.

At the 3rd fret the chord would be Eb and consequently Eb[sub]/D[/sub] (Eb maj7 with the maj7 (D) in the bass), again more than likely to sound "wrong" on a guitar though a totally valid chord construct within the larger context of a flowing piece of music

Bigwon · Jul 12, 2013

I'll try to better explain.

Lets say I'm just playing em,g,a

As i play those 3 chords I find that playing the collection of notes from the 'D' shape 1st fret, 'C' shape 3rd fret, 'A' shape 5th fret sound relatively good and fit quite nicely while improvising.

But doing a bit more playing my ears are now picking up that the 'D' Shape actually doesn't sound right on the 5th fret. I used to do it and it'd sound well enough (suppose it's because i play alone and during chord progressions i'd break off into hitting individual notes up there) but if i was accompanying someone i would stick to the A shape (playing 5th fret) or otherwise sound pretty horrible.

I think I'm picking this up. I'm now picking up the habit of hitting the blue notes from the A shape as opposed to the other way around.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Otherwise I'm finding that for standard tuning I'm only really playing the CAGED sequence either as C,A,G,E,D or D,C,A,G,E

CAGED for when i'm playing blue grass and more upbeat and D,C,A,G,E for the more bluesy stuff. As of now I'm only really associated with the major chords with Em,Am,B7 and other basics. But for some reason when improvising melodies with D,C,A,G,E it seems to work with all the songs i play...I'm guessing that it's because there from the same or relatively similar keys (a 5th cycle down or up).

Does that sound right at allÉ(grrrr.....how do i get rid of éÉÉ...AAAHHHH!!trying to question mark!!!)

I found that when playing piano that I got really used to playing the cminor key and using notes from Fminor and Gminor (relative 5ths) i could pretty much just go all out....it felt liberating as it felt like all 12 of the notes were at my disposal as opposed to just the notes from the scale and confusing theory that uses flats and sharps, substitutions and what not. Like I was looking at the notes as either `Harmonic` or `Dissonant`.

You can tell I wouldn`t be a fun person to play along side with....hehehe

I guess if nothing else this might make some entertaining discussionÉ hehehe

bandcoach · Jul 12, 2013

show me the chord shapes you are referring to

use the following format

[FONT=Courier New]
[table]
[tr][th][/th][th][/th][th][/th][th][/th][th][/th][th][/th][/tr]
[tr][td]=[/td][td]=[/td][td]=[/td][td]=[/td][td]=[/td][td]=[/td][/tr]
[tr][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][/tr]
[/table]
[/FONT]

to get a grid like this


=	=	=	=	=	=

= ~ the nut or 0 fret
the table grid lines serve as the frets for the rest
- ~ every other fret
use the letter "o" to show a fret that is held down for each chord type on frets below the nut
use the letter "o" above the nut to show any open strings in the voicing
use the letter "x" above the nut to show strings which should not be sounded in the voicing
if you wish to be complete
use the numbers 1-4 above the nut to show which fingers are holding each note down.

if you want to show a chord at a higher fret you need to name the fret that the first finger of your fretting hand sits on and then indicate the chord in relation to that fret:

an example
C chord first fret

x	3	2	0	1	0
=	=	=	=	=	=
				o
		o
	o

C chord third fret (actually D chord with added G and E)

x	3	2	0	1	0
=	=	=	=	=	=
				o
		o
	o

C chord fifth fret (actually E chord with added G (read as F## and so an add #9) and E)

x	3	2	0	1	0
=	=	=	=	=	=
				o
		o
	o

Doing something like this might help me to understand your statements and your question better: this is mostly because I think you are using the language incorrectly - the diagrams will help me know exactly what you mean in the context of this question (no blurring of which fret you mean, and so)

Bigwon · Jul 14, 2013

Hey bandcoach I think I'm just throwing up junk and I need to just rethink how I'm going about this.

I just did some more looking into it on the and have come to an outline that i might follow:

1)Getting the basic shapes of the CAGE system as a reference (mainly emphasis on the scales, as the chords only seem to be really applicable to the major chords before becoming next to unplayable)
2)Learn the open chords (because why not?)
3)Learn chord construction (the shapes of the Major/Minor, 7's, Major/Minor 7ths, Augmented/Diminished) and how to apply it up and down the neck as opposed to trying to transpose open chords up the neck using the CAGE system. As discussed in this video: GUITAR THEORY: Constructing Chords on the Guitar Neck - YouTube GUITAR THEORY: Constructing Chords on the Guitar Neck - YouTube

I can't really think of anything from there asides practicing technique. I'm mainly looking to establish the basic theory needed to construct songs with the guitar to play. Then afterwards playing around with different techniques to merely compliment or further color what I'm doing.

Would you have any suggestions in regards to that?
Sorry for totally off railing from what you posted, that must have taken a considerable amount of time.

bandcoach · Jul 14, 2013

So, I went and had a look and yes, your language use was a little awry

C major

x	3	2	o	1	o
=	=	=	=	=	=
				o
		o
	o

A major

x	o	1	2	3	0
=	=	=	=	=	=

		o	o	o

G major

2	1	o	o	o	3
=	=	=	=	=	=

	o
o					o

E major

o	2	3	1	o	o
=	=	=	=	=	=
			o
	o	o

D major

x	x	o	1	3	2
=	=	=	=	=	=

			o		o
				o

C shape for D major

x	4	3	1	2	1
=	=	=	=	=	=

			o		o
				o
		o
	o

A shape for Bb major

x	1	2	3	4	1
=	=	=	=	=	=
	o				o

		o	o	o

G shape for C major
(1st finger at 5th fret)

3	2	1	1	1	4
=	=	=	=	=	=
~	~	~	~	~	~
		o	o	o

	o
o					o

E shape for F major

1	3	4	2	1	1
=	=	=	=	=	=
o				o	o
			o
	o	o

D shape for Eb major

x	x	1	2	4	3
=	=	=	=	=	=
		o

			o		o
				o

To make these movable you need to change the finger numbers by 1 and apply the 1st finger as a barre across the strings holding down all open strings, like so

~ = shifted away from the nut/0 fret, can be used to indicate nay number of frets above the nut

For the minor shapes

C minor

x	x	1	o	2	4
=	=	=	=	=	=
		o		o

					o

A minor

x	o	3	2	1	0
=	=	=	=	=	=
				o
		o	o

G minor

x	x	o	1	1	1
=	=	=	=	=	=


			o	o	o

E minor

o	2	3	o	o	o
=	=	=	=	=	=

	o	o

D minor

x	x	o	2	3	1
=	=	=	=	=	=
					o
			o
				o

Cm shape for D minor

x	x	2	1	3	4
=	=	=	=	=	=

			o
		o		o

					o

Am shape for B minor

x	1	4	3	2	1
=	=	=	=	=	=

	o				o
				o
		o	o

Gm shape for A minor

x	x	1	3	3	3
=	=	=	=	=	=

		o


			o	o	o

Em shape for F# minor

1	3	4	1	1	1
=	=	=	=	=	=

o			o	o	o

	o	o

Dm shape for Eb minor

x	x	1	3	4	2
=	=	=	=	=	=
		o
					o
			o
				o

Each shape and its resulting chord at each of the first 12 frets

Shape→ ↓Fret	C	A	G	E	D	Cm	Am	Gm	Em	Dm
0	C	A	G	E	D	Cm	Am	Gm	Em	Dm
1	C#/Db	A#/Bb	G#/Ab	F	D#/Eb	C#m/Dbm	A#m/Bbm	G#m/Abm	Fm	D#m/Ebm
2	D	B	A	F#/Gb	E	Dm	Bm	Am	F#m/Gbm	Em
3	D#/Eb	C	A#/Bb	G	F	D#m/Ebm	Cm	A#m/Bbm	Gm	Fm
4	E	C#/Db	B	G#/Ab	F#/Gb	Em	C#m/Dbm	Bm	G#m/Abm	F#m/Gbm
5	F	D	C	A	G	Fm	Dm	Cm	Am	Gm
6	F#/Gb	D#/Eb	C#/Db	A#/Bb	G#/Ab	F#m/Gbm	D#m/Ebm	C#m/Dbm	A#m/Bbm	G#m/Abm
7	G	E	D	B	A	Gm	Em	Dm	Bm	Am
8	G#/Ab	F	D#/Eb	C	A#/Bb	G#m/Abm	Fm	D#m/Ebm	Cm	A#m/Bbm
9	A	F#/Gb	E	C#/Db	B	Am	F#m/Gbm	Em	C#m/Dbm	Bm
10	A#/Bb	G	F	D	C	A#m/Bbm	Gm	Fm	Dm	Cm
11	B	G#/Ab	F#/Gb	D#/Eb	C#/Db	Bm	G#m/Abm	F#m/Gbm	D#m/Ebm	C#m/Dbm
12	C	A	G	E	D	Cm	Am	Gm	Em	Dm

Here are some thoughts on the scale forms

C aka the Lydian mode

\|	o	o		o
\|	o	o		o
\|	o		o
\|	o		o	o
\|	o		o	o
\|	o	o		o

A form aka Mixolydian mode

\|	o		o		o
\|	o		o	o
\|		o	o
\|	o		o		o
\|	o		o		o
\|	o		o		o

G form aka natural minor or Aeolian mode

\|	o		o	o
\|	o	o		o
\|	o		o
\|	o		o		o
\|	o		o	o
\|	o		o	o

E aka major or Ionian mode

\|	o	o		o
\|		o		o
\|	o		o	o
\|	o		o	o
\|	o	o		o
\|	o	o		o

D form aka Dorian mode

	o	o	o
	o	o	o
o	o	o
o	o	o
	o	o
	o	o	o

notes that are highlighted as this
are the starting notes for the alternate named modes

[

Combining them into one long fretboard

	Nut	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13
1	o	o		o		o		o	o		o		o	o
2	o	o		o		o	o		o		o		o	o
3	o		o		o	o		o		o	o		o
4	o		o	o		o		o		o	o		o
5	o		o	o		o		o	o		o		o
6	o	o		o		o		o	o		o		o	o
	C	G
		A		D
		E

Bigwon · Jul 15, 2013

Thanks Coach!

I decided to record a track and link it here for clarification.

https://soundcloud.com/theanjovi/anj-guitar-tshoot/s-gKTmc

just using the open chords at the guitar's edge like those diagrams.

zkinter36 · Jul 17, 2013

Has anyone used the new AutoTheory plug in (RE) for Reason? What are your thoughts on it? It's supposed to make it easy for anyone to play piano like a professional. I don't use Reason, but this looks pretty dope. Hopefully other DAW's will implement something like this.

Guitar Theory Question (regarding caged system)

Bigwon

New member

bandcoach

Zukatoku - Mod Scientist

Bigwon

New member

bandcoach

Zukatoku - Mod Scientist

Bigwon

New member

bandcoach

Zukatoku - Mod Scientist

Bigwon

New member

zkinter36

New member

	Nut	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13
1	o	o		o		o		o	o		o		o	o
2	o	o		o		o	o		o		o		o	o
3	o		o		o	o		o		o	o		o
4	o		o	o		o		o		o	o		o
5	o		o	o		o		o	o		o		o
6	o	o		o		o		o	o		o		o	o
	C	G
		A		D
		E

	Nut	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13
1	o	o		o		o		o	o		o		o	o
2	o	o		o		o	o		o		o		o	o
3	o		o		o	o		o		o	o		o
4	o		o	o		o		o		o	o		o
5	o		o	o		o		o	o		o		o
6	o	o		o		o		o	o		o		o	o
	C	G
		A		D
		E

	Nut	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13
1	o	o		o		o		o	o		o		o	o
2	o	o		o		o	o		o		o		o	o
3	o		o		o	o		o		o	o		o
4	o		o	o		o		o		o	o		o
5	o		o	o		o		o	o		o		o
6	o	o		o		o		o	o		o		o	o
	C	G
		A		D
		E