Frustrating Question: Classical Music Theory, IE Prelude E-Minor-Chopin

[starlightj0nes]

Sup fellers,
Anyone with a broader knowledge of music theory, if you will, could you explain something to me...

Chopin, Prelude in E-Minor will be the example to use-

My dilemma:
I been independently studying music theory. I cant get an answer from nobody, most likely because I dont know the exact terminology for this specific theory. And I cant afford a teacher...So hopefully one of yall can give me insight....

The song's in E-minor (Aeolian mode)
i- Em
ii- F#
iii- Gmaj
iv- Am
v- Bm
vi- Cmaj
vii- Dmaj

My question is, he plays other keys and chords in the song, ie G#, D#, F, etc…But how do know which chords you can add to this mode thats not within the circle of fifths? or even any other mode?

My thoughts were that you could only play those keys and chords (listed above) in E-minor aeolian but in this song, he plays other chords and keys that are not relative to the aeolian mode….

So idk….the concept frustrated me when i first encountered it. I thought I was doing fine playing those chords and keys within whatever mode, but this is beyond what ive been studying.
Your comments and thoughts are appreciated.
Thanks in advanced.
PEACE!

 

[doobiesnacks]

Read up on secondary dominate chords. Example. (V7 of V). Scale share certain chords which also can be used as key switching. Read on key centers also.

---------- Post added at 08:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:41 PM ----------

Classical music uses alot of key modulations.

 

[starlightj0nes]

doobiesnacks,
i appreciate the reply. im gonna check that out now, hopefully i wont be back with more questions..

 

[doobiesnacks]

Example. Key of C has no accidentals. Say your playing a peice and you come across a Dmaj chord which is d-f#-a. We know that in the key of C F# is not there. Pick which chord you wanna tonicize. Say the Cmaj. Which is c-e-g. Take the 5th which is g build a triad. G-b-d and take the 5th of that which is D and build a major triad. Boom. V of V chord. Used as secondary dominate. There's many similar formulas. This was just a quick bad example

---------- Post added at 08:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:48 PM ----------

Np man. We actually used that peice last semester for homework on secondary dominates and key modulations. Good pick to use as an example.

 

[bandcoach]

Secondary dominants like doobiesnacks says.

Also called V-of-whatever chord it is V of.

So for example

Bmajor is V-of-i in E minor (B-D#-F#)
F#major is V-of-V (F#-A#-C#)
C#major is V-of-V-of-V or V-of-ii (C#-E#-G#)
G#major is V-of-VI (G#-B#-D#)
D#major is V-of-III (D#-F##-A#)
A#major is V-of-VII (A#-C##-E#)

We can also have the following V-of-? chains
Fmajor is V-of-bV (F-A-C)
Cmajor is V-of-bII (C-E-G)
Gmajor is V-of-bVI (G-B-D)
Dmajor is V-of-bIII (D-F#-A)
Amajor is V-of-bVII (A-C#-E)

Simply by choosing one of these chords, you become compelled to follow the elongated chain of fifths either as a chain of V-of-? i.e.

Amajor-Dmajor-Gmajor-Cmajor-Fmajor-A#major-D#major-G#major-C#major-F#major-Bmajor

(A#major is the same as Bbmajor)

or as a somewhat simpler chain:

Amajor-Dminor-Gmajor-Cmajor-F#major-Bmajor-Eminor.

Each of the secondary dominants is able to launch you into a different tonality or area of the cycle of fifths.

I have an old tute I wrote in 2000 that I can dust off and computerise if you would like.

cheers

 

[starlightj0nes]

bahdcoach doobs,
thanks for the quick lessons. i was playing around using the 5th of the triads, but when can i apply this to the key or mode.

ie, Cmaj (ionian mode)
Following your guys v-v chain, you ultimately will hit F#
But F# becomes and accidental correct?
So in the case of playing that chord, D F#A, will it always sound right in the Cmaj Ionian?

I think i found a better way to rephrase my question above.
In sheet music, you see all the accidentals (sharps, flats, neutrals) that arent supposed to be in that key and mode. But how do you determine which accidentals you can use for a specific key and mode? Is there a formula to this?

thank for offering to computerize it, but i really dont want you to waste your time doing all that lol
I appreciate the effort yall takin to help me out with this..

 

[bandcoach]

bahdcoach doobs,
thanks for the quick lessons. i was playing around using the 5th of the triads, but when can i apply this to the key or mode.

ie, Cmaj (ionian mode)
Following your guys v-v chain, you ultimately will hit F#
But F# becomes and accidental correct?
So in the case of playing that chord, D F#A, will it always sound right in the Cmaj Ionian?

A million or more country songs can't be wrong (although collecting them and collectively pulping them might make some people feel better);

C / / / | G / / / | G / / / | C / / / | F / / / | C / / / | D / / / | G7 / / / :||

[MP3]http://www.bandcoach.org/fp/audio/secdoms-01.mp3[/MP3]

I think i found a better way to rephrase my question above.
In sheet music, you see all the accidentals (sharps, flats, neutrals) that arent supposed to be in that key and mode. But how do you determine which accidentals you can use for a specific key and mode? Is there a formula to this?

Not a formula as such, more the V-of-? chain idea than anything else.


Think of this progression:

C / / / | E / / / | Am / / / | D / / / | G7 / / / | C7 / / / | Fmaj7 / / / ||

[MP3]http://www.bandcoach.org/fp/audio/secdoms-02.mp3[/MP3]

We are, in all likelihood, in the key of F, but we have several chords that are not part of the harmonic resources of the key:
FAC[E], GBbD[F], ACE[G], BbDF[A], CEG[Bb], DFA[C], EGBb[D]

We are using:
CEG, EG#B, ACE, DF#A, GBDF, CEGBb, FACE

If we analyse the progression using Roman numeral notation, we get the following:

V / / / | V/iii / / / | iii / / / | V/ii / / / | V7/V / / / | V7 / / / | I7 / / / ||

where we use slash notation with two Roman numerals it is read as V-of-chord, e.g., V/iii is read as V-of-iii. This is where we get the naming of this type of function as secondary dominant, as it is the dominant chord (V chord) of the secondary chords in a key.

In major keys, chords I, IV and V are the primary chords and chords ii, iii, vi and viib5 are the secondary chords.

In C major this would be C (CEG), F (FAC) and G (GBD) as the primary chords (all Major chords) and Dm (DFA), Em (EGB), Am (ACE) and Bdim (BDF) (all chords with a minor 3rd).

In the minor the primary chords are i, iv and V and the secondary chords are iib5, III#5, bVI and viib5.

In C minor this would be Cm (CEbG), Fm (FAbC) and G (GBD) as the primary chords and Ddim (DFAb), Eb (EbGBb), Ab (AbCEb) and Bdim (BDF).

The basic premise is that the chords built on the 1st, 4th and 5th degrees of the scale are the primary triads and the chords built on the other degrees of the scale are the secondary triads.

So inserting a V-of-? into a progression is more of a choice than a formula


Two more examples to ponder

[MP3]http://www.bandcoach.org/fp/audio/secdoms-03.mp3[/MP3]

[MP3]http://www.bandcoach.org/fp/audio/secdoms-04.mp3[/MP3]

thank for offering to computerize it, but i really dont want you to waste your time doing all that lol
I appreciate the effort yall takin to help me out with this..

No problem computerising the file - I have to do it at some stage for my day job and for my own files completeness - I spend some time each day converting old teaching notes into short snappy tutorials. I was writing stuff that didn't always get written up on the computer. The musical notation invariably was, but the commentary tended to be hand copied after each lesson had finished - mostly because it in doing the commentary on the materials some additional insights always came out, mostly because of student questions.

 

[starlightj0nes]

Bandcoach. I just got home so I haven't had time to experiment but will jump on this right after work. I'll be back with feedback.
Thanks again sir!

---------- Post added 06-23-2011 at 05:37 AM ---------- Previous post was 06-21-2011 at 10:53 PM ----------

bandcoach, sensei! lol

more or less i just spent the last hour trying to figure out what the heck was going on with the all those symbols, but im finally getting it for the most part. boy its interesting though.
So for your Fmaj example-
You went from C, to VofA, to A, to VofG, to "V7/V" <---this is where i fell off a little bit wit the 7's but i think i can figure it out...
But when you went to E (V/iii) why not play Em? Same thing with the D, why D? and not Dmin? is it because Dmin is already apart of the circle of fifths? or just the principle of V-of-? theory?...strangely i feel like just answered my own question...
But the forumla you used you essentially went from V, III(V/iii), III, II, ?, V, to I. Why this progression? How would you know when to use the V-? You said that its a choice more than a formula. So youre basically saying what sounds correct to the human ear?
If i took the Fmaj key and got the V's of all the major/minor keys, they would all sound right within that key im in?

Sorry for asking so many questions.
I appreciate the images and sounds you dropped in the posts....i feel like i need to compensate you lol....
but honestly you and doobie just made me advance in theory by lightyears. thank you guys so much again!

 

[bandcoach]

more or less i just spent the last hour trying to figure out what the heck was going on with the all those symbols, but im finally getting it for the most part. boy its interesting though.
So for your Fmaj example-
You went from C, to VofA, to A, to VofG, to "V7/V" <---this is where i fell off a little bit wit the 7's but i think i can figure it out...

I threw the 7ths in where appropriate because I can later do some stuff with diminished 7ths and complete key modulation out of those. Adds one tone in each case and with the exception of the Fmaj7 these are all dominant 7th chords, thus reinforcing the V-of-? concept.

But when you went to E (V/iii) why not play Em? Same thing with the D, why D? and not Dmin? is it because Dmin is already apart of the circle of fifths? or just the principle of V-of-? theory?...strangely i feel like just answered my own question...

Partly principle of V-of-?, but also choosing the E maj over E minor means that I am using the G# to push to the Amin, it's a temporary leading tone as are the 3rds of all the V-of-? chords.

But the forumla you used you essentially went from V, III(V/iii), III, II, ?, V, to I. Why this progression? How would you know when to use the V-? You said that its a choice more than a formula. So youre basically saying what sounds correct to the human ear?
If i took the Fmaj key and got the V's of all the major/minor keys, they would all sound right within that key im in?

Not really - you run into problems with Bb and E:

F - Bb - Emb5 - Am - Dm - Gm - C - F is the usual running of the cycle of 5ths.
I - IV - viib5 - iii - vi - ii - V - I

Working backwards we can add V-of-? to the progression
G - C - F
D - G - C - F
A - D - G - C - F
E - A - D - G - C - F
B - E - A - D - G - C - F
F - B - E - A - D - G - C - F

We hit a disjunct modulation from F to B major, one that really crunches to our harmonic sensibilities.

Now this is how I would treat this:

F - BbSus4 - E - Am - D - G - C - F

BbSus4 ~ BEbF: Eb is exactly the same as D# for our purposes here, so we include the leading tone for E which pushes the rest of the progression.

Why Am? because it contains two notes from the F chord - I want to retain some flavour of the original key, no other reason.

Sorry for asking so many questions.
I appreciate the images and sounds you dropped in the posts....i feel like i need to compensate you lol....
but honestly you and doobie just made me advance in theory by lightyears. thank you guys so much again!

Images and sounds are my stock in trade for teaching (my day job), so no big deal. Thank you for thanks, they are always welcome. BTW I have yet to dig out the old tute.

Looking at the last example in my previous post it is missing one chord (between the 7th and 8th chords, an E chord) but is otherwise the progression for Elvis's interpretation of Aura Lee known as "Love Me Tender".

I can also see some other possibilities for chord substitution here that are not explained by secondary dominants. Happy to explore further with you if interested.

 

[musica4u2]

I believe you made a 2 mistakes - I have highlighted the two areas in orange.
We can also have the following V-of-? chains
Fmajor is V-of-bV (F-A-C)
Cmajor is V-of-bII (C-E-G)
Gmajor is V-of-bVI (G-B-D)>>>>>>>>>I believe the flat should be omitted.
Dmajor is V-of-III (D-F#-A)
Amajor is V-of-bVII (A-C#-E)>>>>>>>>I believe the flat should be omitted. This is my first post to this site and I appreciate any corrections of my comments! Wonderful site.

 

[bandcoach]

I believe you made a 2 mistakes - I have highlighted the two areas in orange.
We can also have the following V-of-? chains
Fmajor is V-of-bV (F-A-C)
Cmajor is V-of-bII (C-E-G)
Gmajor is V-of-bVI (G-B-D)>>>>>>>>>I believe the flat should be omitted.
Dmajor is V-of-III (D-F#-A)
Amajor is V-of-bVII (A-C#-E)>>>>>>>>I believe the flat should be omitted. This is my first post to this site and I appreciate any corrections of my comments! Wonderful site.

I'm going to put the whole example in here to explain why the b's should remain; nothing like context to make something clear:

So for example

Bmajor is V-of-i in E minor (B-D#-F#)
F#major is V-of-V (F#-A#-C#)
C#major is V-of-V-of-V or V-of-ii (C#-E#-G#)
G#major is V-of-#VI (G#-B#-D#)
D#major is V-of-#III (D#-F##-A#)
A#major is V-of-VII (A#-C##-E#)

We can also have the following V-of-? chains
Fmajor is V-of-bV (F-A-C)
Cmajor is V-of-bII (C-E-G)
Gmajor is V-of-bVI (G-B-D)
Dmajor is V-of-III (D-F#-A)
Amajor is V-of-bVII (A-C#-E)

Yields the following progression or string of perfect cadences

A-D-G-C-F-A#/Bb-D#-G#-C#-F#-B-Em

This is rendered as a string of V-of-? as

V/bVII-V/bIII-V/bVI-V/bII-V/bV/#IV-V/VII-V/III-V/VI-V/II-V-i


Discussing this in terms of the harmonic minor scale we get

IV-bVII-bIII-bVI-bII-bV/#IV-VII-III-VI-II-V-i

E harmonic minor
E-F#-G-A-B-C-D#-E

Scale tone numbers are allocated based on the tonic major scale (i.e.E Major) and altered to fit the pattern of current scale:

1-2-b3-4-5-b6-7-8

Roman numeral chord numbers then follow alterations to the pattern and the notes presented:

D major is bVII
G major is bIII
C major is bVI
F major is bII
Bb major/A# major is bV/#IV

Compared against my original example there is an error but not the one you identified

Dmajor is V-of-III (D-F#-A)

should read

Dmajor is V-of-bIII (D-F#-A)

Thank you for highlighting this point (usage of Roman numeral chord numbers and scale tones in discussing how progressions work) and helping to identify the error that was present.