following scales

[djclueveli]

when followign scales, does that mean that those are the only notes and chords you can use in the song?

example:
the song is in E major key which the scale for E major is E,F#,G#,A,B,C#,and D#

so does this mean those are the notes and chords that i can use in the song? also if this is right does that mean i can use any of those notes combined with any other notes as long as one of those notes are the root note? (example can i use any of those notes in the scale and make any type of chord with it such as major and minor and it will be on key even if the chord consist of a note that is not part of the scale)

thanks for any feedback!!

 

[mbietenholz]

when followign scales, does that mean that those are the only notes and chords you can use in the song?

example:
the song is in E major key which the scale for E major is E, F#,G#,A,B,C#,and D#

so does this mean those are the notes and chords that i can use in the song? also if this is right does that mean i can use any of those notes combined with any other notes as long as one of those notes are the root note? (example can i use any of those notes in the scale and make any type of chord with it such as major and minor and it will be on key even if the chord consist of a note that is not part of the scale)

thanks for any feedback!!

To be strictly in the key of Emajor you would use only the notes in the scale, and any chords would also use only those notes, so if you play a triad (rood-third-fifth) chord, you'd get e.g., the major triad for E (E, G#, B), but the minor for F# (F#, A, C#) and the (crosses himself) diminished for D# (D#, F#, A). So, an e.g., E7 chord (E, G#, B, D) is not in the key of E major.

However, its is quite common to use notes which are not in the key signature in actual music (they're called accidentals) and you'd probably have to hunt to find a piece of music which did not have at least one accidental in it (if you try playing a jazz tune with chords that are strictly in key, well, lets just say, it will probably lack that swing...)

 

[jizzer]

^^I'm not sure I agree with that. I think you've got it exactly right DJClue. Any note in the E Major scale can be played any which way.

Some confusion arises because the same notes for E major are also in C# Minor. So it does matter what the "root" note of the song is. E Major and C# Minor would sound like different songs, even though the exact same notes are used, because in each the emphasis is on different root notes.

(Actually, a Minor scale is the same as a Major scale...just starting from the 6th position and playing root to root.)

 

[hy_skyz]

when followign scales, does that mean that those are the only notes and chords you can use in the song?

example:
the song is in E major key which the scale for E major is E,F#,G#,A,B,C#,and D#

so does this mean those are the notes and chords that i can use in the song?

thanks for any feedback!!

Scales (or keys) aren't rules so much as guidelines. When I make music, the only thing I'm really bound to in the short-run is the tonic or "root note." I'm not saying that you have to use the tonic in every chord, and you aren't barred from using accidentals, either. Scales are just standardized ways of organizing notes into systems that are commonly considered "pleasant" to the ear.

In my opinion, keys are based mainly on the tonic. If you can carry your melodies and harmonies back to that note, for most purposes, you should be fine. There are no real boundaries.

 

[D$B]

^^I'm not sure I agree with that. I think you've got it exactly right DJClue. Any note in the E Major scale can be played any which way.

Some confusion arises because the same notes for E major are also in C# Minor. So it does matter what the "root" note of the song is. E Major and C# Minor would sound like different songs, even though the exact same notes are used, because in each the emphasis is on different root notes.

(Actually, a Minor scale is the same as a Major scale...just starting from the 6th position and playing root to root.)

I'm going to have to agree with this Mate.

It all depends on the root note... For example...

Play a C Major Scale- C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C

Now play an A Minor Scale- A, B, C, D, E, F, G, A

 

[jizzer]

Of course we can alway play whatever we want. But for the purposes of teaching music theory, it's misleading for everyone to keep saying "there are no rules". There ARE rules in music theory, there's just no punishment for breaking them. I don't really care myself about following any rules, but if you go to a music school, this attitude doesn't fly.

For instance, a "scale" is not a "guideline" to me at all, it's an exact blueprint. If you change ONE note in any scale, you're playing a different scale. Scales are classified based on their unique patterns. And each one has it's own sound signature.

Again, I'm not saying you have to follow any rules. Just like we don't have to speak proper English to communicate. But the rules ARE there, and they are not meant to be broken. (In fact, imho music theory tries to desperately tie all the rules together, with some success) I'm just saying, doing anything you want is not music theory. I'm not actually a fan of music theory. Not a fan of Geometry either. But rules are rules.

 

[hy_skyz]

Of course we can alway play whatever we want. But for the purposes of teaching music theory, it's misleading for everyone to keep saying "there are no rules". There ARE rules in music theory, there's just no punishment for breaking them. I don't really care myself about following any rules, but if you go to a music school, this attitude doesn't fly.

For instance, a "scale" is not a "guideline" to me at all, it's an exact blueprint. If you change ONE note in any scale, you're playing a different scale. Scales are classified based on their unique patterns. And each one has it's own sound signature.

Again, I'm not saying you have to follow any rules. Just like we don't have to speak proper English to communicate. But the rules ARE there, and they are not meant to be broken. (In fact, imho music theory tries to desperately tie all the rules together, with some success) I'm just saying, doing anything you want is not music theory. I'm not actually a fan of music theory. Not a fan of Geometry either. But rules are rules.

I took his questions to be more about use in practical application, so I tried to give the most practical answers.

Wasn't trying to disregard theory. I understand that would be a different story altogether.

 

[djclueveli]

thanks jizzer, skyz n d$b. yea i just want to know the rules that they will teach you if you go to a music theory class and then once i master those, than i'll began to break the rules. i'm sure people like timbaland who make easy beats does not break the music theory rules lol. maybe scott storch does though since he is a pianist lol

 

[hy_skyz]

i'm sure people like timbaland who make easy beats does not break the music theory rules lol. maybe scott storch does though since he is a pianist lol

heh. You'll see.

 

[jizzer]

I took his questions to be more about use in practical application, so I tried to give the most practical answers.

Wasn't trying to disregard theory. I understand that would be a different story altogether.

I hear ya. I don't even care for theory myself really. It either seems to strain too much to explain a certain sound signature, or it takes the fun out of simple musical ideas. Either way, I've tried to forget about it.

 

[Delphine]

(example can i use any of those notes in the scale and make any type of chord with it such as major and minor and it will be on key even if the chord consist of a note that is not part of the scale)

thanks for any feedback!!

I think what's confusing you is the relationship between the notes in the scale and the chords built on each scale degree.

There are what's called Diatonic chords in a scale, these are chords which are formed by using only the notes within the scale.

I think what you are saying is that if you play a chord ( any chord ) and providing it uses a root note from one of the notes within the scale, can you use it? At least this is the jist of what I'm getting from your post.

The actual answer is yes and no. Yes because if you find something that sounds good, don't constrict yourself to just the chords from the scale. No because I think you need to grasp what diatonic chords are first and once you understand the principle, you will be a much better position to break 'rules'.

You mentioned the E Major scale. E,F#,G#,A,B,C#,D#

The chords that are Diatonic to the scale are:

EMaj, F#min, G#min, AMaj, BMaj, C#min, Ddim.

There is a pattern there and it applies to ANY major scale. ( maj,min,min,maj,maj,min,dim )

( To work out the patterns of the relative minor, just start on the 6th chord and work and work your way back around. )

So once you understand there is a chord built on each degree of a scale, you then know what Diatonic chords 'belong' to that scale. ( The examples above can be applied to any major and its relative minor regardless of the root because we are only dealing in intervals.)

Nothings stopping you from replacing any of those Diatonic chords with non-Diatonic chords, as always though, how effective they will be will depend on how you phrase them in the music.

 

[PlanetHitzProduction]

I hear ya. I don't even care for theory myself really. It either seems to strain too much to explain a certain sound signature, or it takes the fun out of simple musical ideas. Either way, I've tried to forget about it.

The problem is the internalization of that theory didn't take place yet.

If you're still thinking "D is the II of the C scale... G is the V and the V resolves to C, the II in the II-V-I is always minor" while making a song..

Sure your music isnt going to sound "fun" or "fluid"

But once these things are internalized through repetition, and hard practice you are able to link the THEORY with MOODS.

Rather than saying "hmm I hear this song braking down at the end of the 8th bar by way of a Tri Tone Substitution, then I shall resolve to the 9th of the IV chord....I believe Wayne Shorter did this majestic leap on a composition on Nefertiti"

It'll sound just as stiff as it reads..

I'm not THINKING about what conjunctions and pronouns I'm using as I'm typing or talking... It's simply internalized into my process for me to speak.

Music is the EXACT same way. But people generally do NOT want to take the same theory based, critical listening AND interpreting phase they used for learning a language...to learn another language.

 

[jizzer]

So if I don't like theory I just haven't internalized it enough??? I highly disagree. I think I've internalized it more than most. My early years were spent getting into and graduating from Music School. I spent years and years doing nothing but learning modes and scales, and progressions and nameing/building jazz chords etc. But I found after many years, I just don't like to think about the definition of what I'm playing. I'd say that is internalizing it quite well. I've gone from Yngwie Malmsteen and John McLauglin's to George Clinton and P-Funks. I've just think that Music theory only tells a fraction of the musical message. And what I meant by "strained" is that since every thing in theory is compared to the Major scale, musical ideas that are easy, become complicated to understand, only because it's being translated through the major scale first. Just look at this thread.

 

[PlanetHitzProduction]

So if I don't like theory I just haven't internalized it enough??? I highly disagree. I think I've internalized it more than most. My early years were spent getting into and graduating from Music School. I spent years and years doing nothing but learning modes and scales, and progressions and nameing/building jazz chords etc. But I found after many years, I just don't like to think about the definition of what I'm playing. I'd say that is internalizing it quite well. I've gone from Yngwie Malmsteen and John McLauglin's to George Clinton and P-Funks. I've just think that Music theory only tells a fraction of the musical message. And what I meant by "strained" is that since every thing in theory is compared to the Major scale, musical ideas that are easy, become complicated to understand, only because it's being translated through the major scale first. Just look at this thread.

OF COURSE. You're 100% right that music theory tells only half the message. And you can HEAR that from someone who hasn't internalized the head knowledge of what they are doing.

*sounds mechanical* is one of those descriptions of that. It's like with Classical Concert Pianists, you just don't listen to everybody interpret your fav Chopin piece... You want Vladimir Horowitz, Ozan Marsh and etc... Whoever your favorites are even with strictly written music are able to add that certain *umph* that you love in those interpretations..

That's why I said part of that internalization of theory is associating those modes, diatonic harmonies, tri tone harmonies, pedal point with MOODS and feelings.

No you aren't thinking 100% about I will use a chromatic dominant while resolving to the blah blah blah.

Your bag of tricks is that deep so you can pull out that level of harmony. Though it is not 100% completely required to have that sort of head knowledge of theory b4 you can associate it with moods and feelings in your work... no. Well all know some people are born with that level of ear..

It just helps some build their vocabulary of options.

I guess one of the hardest things about music theory is getting STARTED in it. Takes alot of patience to introduce yourself to a new language. The right mindset as well.

 

[jizzer]

I guess I don't follow you completely Hitz. I certainly agree with parts of what you're saying, but I do sense that you place higher value in theory than I probably do. But if you feel that a person who doesn't place much value in music theory just doesn't understand it well enough to have that opinion, I'd have to disagree with that. In my opinion, learning theory can be very useful and instructive. It can also be overly-complex. It can also stifle creativity, especially for music that isn't difficult. But I admit that is my own experience of it all. I actually used to be very technical minded in my playing, and I eventually just bored myself to death. It took Funk music to wake me up again.

 

[RAGAMP]

I think what's confusing you is the relationship between the notes in the scale and the chords built on each scale degree.

There are what's called Diatonic chords in a scale, these are chords which are formed by using only the notes within the scale.

I think what you are saying is that if you play a chord ( any chord ) and providing it uses a root note from one of the notes within the scale, can you use it? At least this is the jist of what I'm getting from your post.

The actual answer is yes and no. Yes because if you find something that sounds good, don't constrict yourself to just the chords from the scale. No because I think you need to grasp what diatonic chords are first and once you understand the principle, you will be a much better position to break 'rules'.

You mentioned the E Major scale. E,F#,G#,A,B,C#,D#

The chords that are Diatonic to the scale are:

EMaj, F#min, G#min, AMaj, BMaj, C#min, Ddim.

There is a pattern there and it applies to ANY major scale. ( maj,min,min,maj,maj,min,dim )

( To work out the patterns of the relative minor, just start on the 6th chord and work and work your way back around. )

So once you understand there is a chord built on each degree of a scale, you then know what Diatonic chords 'belong' to that scale. ( The examples above can be applied to any major and its relative minor regardless of the root because we are only dealing in intervals.)

Nothings stopping you from replacing any of those Diatonic chords with non-Diatonic chords, as always though, how effective they will be will depend on how you phrase them in the music.

Well said. I like your answers. One question about the chords that are diatonic to the scale. For example since we are talking about E major scale.

You mentioned the E Major scale. E,F#,G#,A,B,C#,D#

The chords that are Diatonic to the scale are:

EMaj, F#min, G#min, AMaj, BMaj, C#min, Ddim.

Are you saying only the above chords will sound good with the E Major scale? And in general does this theory apply to any scale your playing.

For EXAMPLE, Im playing in C Major C, D, E, F, G, A, B

CMaj, Dmin, Emin, FMaj, GMaj, Amin, BDim Chords will only sound good with C major scale?

 

[PlanetHitzProduction]

learning theory can be very useful and instructive. It can also be overly-complex. It can also stifle creativity, especially for music that isn't difficult.

Agreed.

 

[Hosey]

It took Funk music to wake me up again.