composing other instruments

[alrightythen]

say you have a chord progression going in the key of c and your guitar part is also then you add in trumpets sax, brass instruments etc are they then composed in the same key or do they have there own rules for harmonizing these instruments to say piano chords? thanks for any help

 

[B Side Producer]

Depends to what key your instrument is in. Let's say Alt sax. It's in E flat. This means, a C on a sounding (don't know the correct english term, this is literally translated from dutch) instrument, like the piano, would be an A on a E flat instrument. You do this by transposing. You have various websites that help you transpose from 'sounding' instruments to whatever key the instrument is in.

Very helpful, the circle of fifths
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe....svg/2000px-Circle_of_fifths_deluxe_4.svg.png
To move from 'sounding' to your E Flat instrument, you have to ascend 3 notes on the ladder (3 places ahead in the circle). Ignoring Whole and half notes, just notes. You could also add 3 Sharp signs.
For playability, I always have a circle of fifths, all major and corresponding minor scales plus their penta scales by hand. That way, you can easily improvise to whatever track/song without having to learn em all by heart.

Here's a list of what instruments are in what note:
Transposing Instruments Basics

Here's two tools that help you transpose:
WEB.TRANSPOSE.TOOL
Automatically Transpose Song Chords to a New Key
(not the best I've seen, just google it)

Here's a website that'll help you find out what chords fit in which keys:
Musical Scale Navigator
Choose your scale key, for example C, then which scale, for example C Major, and you'll get a very handy list of what chords will fit the scale
Musical Scale Info: C major

 

[bandcoach]

Depends to what key your instrument is in. Let's say Alt sax. It's in E flat. This means, a C on a sounding (don't know the correct english term, this is literally translated from dutch) instrument, like the piano, would be an A on a E flat instrument. You do this by transposing. You have various websites that help you transpose from 'sounding' instruments to whatever key the instrument is in.

To play the note C on an Alto sax (an Eb transposing instrument) you need to play the written/fingered note A
To play the note C on a Bb Trumpet (a Bb transposing instrument) you need to play the written/fingered note D
To play the note C on a Horn in F you need to play the written/fingered note G
and so on

much easier to view this table

Concert key	C	C#/Db	D	Eb	E	F	F#/Gb	G	G#/Ab	A	Bb	B
Bb	D	Eb	E	F	F#	G	G#/Ab	A	Bb	B	C	C#
Eb	A	Bb	B	C	C#	D	Eb	E	F	F#/Gb	G	G#/Ab
A	Eb	E	F	F#/Gb	G	Ab	A	Bb	B	C	C#/Db	D
F	G	G#/Ab	A	Bb	B	C	C#/Db	D	Eb	E	F	F#/Gb
D	Bb	Bb	C	C#/Db	D	Eb	E	F	F#/Gb	G	G#/Ab	A
G	F	F#/Gb	G	G#/Ab	A	Bb	B	C	C#/Db	D	EB	E

instruments for each transposition

• C
  • Flute
  • Piccolo
  • Oboe
  • Bassoon
  • Contra-Bassoon
  • Trumpet
  • Tenor Trombone
  • Tenor Trombone F trigger
  • Bass Trombone
  • Baritone Horn
  • Euphonium
  • Tuba BBb
  • Tuba CC
  • Tuba F
  • Violin
  • Viola
  • Violoncello
  • Double Bass
  • Guitar
  • Mandolin
  • Harp
  • Banjo
  • bass flute
  • Bass Oboe
• Bb
  • Clarinet
  • Trumpet
  • Soprano Sax
  • Tenor Sax
  • Bass Sax
  • Bass Clarinet
  • Contra-bass Clarinet
  • bass trumpet
  • cornet
  • flugel horn
  • piccolo trumpet
  • Tuba Bb
• Eb
  • Alto clarinet
  • Alto Sax
  • Baritone Sax
  • Contra-Bass Sax
  • Soprano clarinet
  • alto horn
  • mellophone
  • sopranino sax
  • bass trumpet
  • soprano cornet
  • trumpet
• F
  • Horn
  • Bassett Horn (clainet family)
  • cor anglais
  • Tuba F
  • alto horn
  • mellophone
• D
  • Trumpet
  • Soprano Clarinet
• G
  • Alto Flute
• A
  • Clarinet
  • Oboe D'Amore
  • piccolo trumpet

However when writing for your daw you do not need to concern yourself with the transpositions of these instruments but rather their playable ranges unless you are willing to sacrifice accuracy for the sake of gesture

• C
  • Flute - B2~C6
  • Piccolo - D4~C7
  • Oboe - Bb2~G5
  • Bassoon - Bb0~C4
  • Contra-Bassoon - Bb-1~A2
  • Trumpet - F#2~Bb4 * can go higher but useful for short periods only
  • Tenor Trombone - E1~C4 * it is possible to play as high as F4 and as low as G0 with prctice
  • Tenor Trombone F trigger - B0~F3 * the trigger only adds more tubing to the trombone, the player still reads at pitch
  • Bass Trombone - C1~B3
  • Baritone Horn - E1~Bb3
  • Euphonium - E1~Bb3 * some euphoniums have a trigger which drops the instrument to an F transposition
  • Tuba BBb - E0~C3
  • Tuba CC - D0~D3
  • Tuba F - D0~F3
  • Violin - G2~G6
  • Viola - C1~A5
  • Violoncello - C0~C5
  • Double Bass - E1~G5 * can go down to B-1
  • Guitar - E2~E6 * 7 string models can either go lower to B0 or higher to B5/C5
  • Mandolin - G2~E6
  • Harp - Cb0~F#6
  • Banjo - D2~A4
  • bass flute - C3~G5
  • Bass Oboe B2~F5
• Bb
  • Clarinet - D2~G5
  • Trumpet - E2~Bb4 * can go higher but useful for short periods only
  • Soprano Sax - Ab2~Eb5
  • Tenor Sax - Ab1~Eb4
  • Bass Sax - Ab0~Eb3
  • Bass Clarinet - Db1~C4
  • Contra-bass Clarinet - Bb-1~C4
  • bass trumpet - E1~Bb3
  • cornet - E2~Bb4
  • flugel horn - E2~Bb4
  • piccolo trumpet - B2~F5
  • Tuba Bb - E1~F4 * Wagner tuba
  ~
• Eb ~
  • ~
  • Alto clarinet - Gb1~F4
  • Alto Sax - Db2~Ab4
  • Baritone Sax - Db1~Ab3
  • Contra-Bass Sax - Db0~Ab2
  • Soprano clarinet - G2~Gb5
  • alto horn - A1~Eb4
  • mellophone - A1~Eb4
  • sopranino sax - Db3~Ab5
  • bass trumpet - A1~Eb4
  • soprano cornet - A2~Eb4
  • trumpet - A2~Eb4
• F
  • Horn - B0~F4
  • Bassett Horn (clainet family) - F0~C5
  • cor anglais - E1~A4
  • Tuba F - B0~F4 * Wagner tuba
  • alto horn - B1~F4
  • mellophone - B1~F4
• D
  • Trumpet - G2~D5
  • Soprano Clarinet - F2~A5
• G
  • Alto Flute - G2~D5
• A
  • Clarinet - C#1~F#5
  • Oboe D'Amore - G#2~D5
  • piccolo trumpet - Bb2~E5

note on octave numbers
middle C = MIDI note number 60 = C3 in most daws = C5 in Fl and BiaB

 

[scrapheaper]

If you are writing sheet music for real musicians to play you will need to transpose.

If you are using Kontakt or dimension or any other sample library, you don't need to transpose.

 

[alrightythen]

ok thanks heaps guys for the information, i am just writing in a daw at the moment using ableton so its all in midi though i would like to learn how to score music properly. I dont have to transpose them because im using abletons host instruments i also use sylenth1. Also if say you are transposing these instruments are they then playing in a different key or is it the same just different range? thanks again

 

[bandcoach]

if you are writing in the transpositions then it is imply a shifting in name only - the sounding note is the same as it was before transposing i.e. a transposition in software is not about moving the pitch of the notes but the written version so that real players can play it for you

another version of that list I gave this time showing written range

• C
  • Flute - B2~C6
  • Piccolo - 0-1~0-1 -P8
  • Oboe - Bb2~G5
  • Bassoon - Bb0~C4
  • Contra-Bassoon - 01~01 +P8
  • Trumpet - F#2~Bb4
  • Tenor Trombone - E1~C4
  • Tenor Trombone F trigger - B0~F3
  • Bass Trombone - C1~B3
  • Baritone Horn - E1~Bb3
  • Euphonium - E1~Bb3
  • Tuba BBb - E0~C3
  • Tuba CC - D0~D3
  • Tuba F - D0~F3
  • Violin - G2~G6
  • Viola - C1~A5
  • Violoncello - C0~C5
  • Double Bass - 01~01 +P8
  • Guitar - 01~01 +P8
  • Mandolin - G2~E6
  • Harp - Cb0~F#6
  • Banjo - D2~A4
  • bass flute - 01~01 +P8
  • Bass Oboe - 01~01 +P8
• Bb
  • Clarinet - E2~A5 +M2
  • Trumpet - F#2~C5 +M2
  • Soprano Sax - Bb2~F5 +M2
  • Tenor Sax - Bb2~F5 +M9
  • Bass Sax - Bb2~F5 +M16
  • Bass Clarinet - Eb2~D5 +M9
  • Contra-bass Clarinet - C1~D6 +M16
  • bass trumpet - F#2~C5 +M9
  • cornet - F#2~C5 +M2
  • flugel horn - F#2~C5 +M2
  • piccolo trumpet - C#2~G4 -m7
  • Tuba Bb - F#2~G5 +M9
• Eb
  • Alto clarinet - Eb2~D5 +M6
  • Alto Sax - Bb2~F5 +M6
  • Baritone Sax - Bb2~F5 +M13
  • Contra-Bass Sax - Bb2~F5 +M20
  • Soprano clarinet - E2~Eb5 -m3
  • alto horn - F#2~C5 +M6
  • mellophone - F#2~C5 +M6
  • sopranino sax - Bb2~F5 -m3
  • bass trumpet - F#2~C5 +M13
  • soprano cornet - F#2~C5 -m3
  • trumpet - F#2~C5 -m3
• F
  • Horn - F#1~C5 +P5
  • Bassett Horn (clainet family) - C1~G5 +P5
  • cor anglais - B1~E5 +P5
  • Tuba F - F#1~C5 +P5
  • alto horn - F#2~C5 +P5
  • mellophone - F#2~C5 +P5
• D
  • Trumpet - F2~C5 -M2
  • Soprano Clarinet - Eb2~G5 -M2
• G
  • Alto Flute - C3~G5 +P4
• A
  • Clarinet - E2~A5 +m3
  • Oboe D'Amore - B2~F5 +m3
  • piccolo trumpet - Db2~G5 -M6

also note that in compiling this list I found some errors in the original which I have corrected above

get yourself one of many texts on orchestration or arranging

for pop style work the books by Nelson Riddle, Henry Mancini, Don Sebesky, Sammy Nestico and Russell Garcia as well as anything by Gordon Delamont that you can put your hands is worth the money spent and time spent studying them cover to cover again and again

for orchestral work look at Principles of Orchestration On-line

another jazz resource (get the book as well now that it is out) Jazz Arranging Online - by Prof. Chuck Israels

 

[alrightythen]

ok cool thanks, i will look up some of the names you mentioned. i was after a good book on composing and arranging pop songs will do some looking around, if you can remember some good ones please let me know. do you have a website similar to the jazz one for pop music or should i just use principals from jazz arrangement thanks again dude heaps of help

 

[bandcoach]

any of these texts are still relevant to pop writing (perhaps not Rimsky-Korsakov), as they were written at a time when Rock was young or much later when the ideas of pop arranging had crossed the genre barrier to jazz as well

If I were to buy just one it would be the Sammy Nestico book and then the Chuck Israels book; add Mancini for wider scope of TV, film and pop song writing