Chordal Trickey and Progressoin, 12 Bar Blues and Modals

O.T.G.

New member
(I'd like to say 'progressoin' is the french way to say 'progression' ahem!)

I've been going over some theory hardcore for a while now, more so to help my listening skills rather than my compositional ability but that's another topic.

Anyway, I've begun listening to a lot of Stuart Price after I watched a great interview with him and Kylie Minogue and from what I can tell he (and a lot of pop/blues producers) uses some pretty simple progressions but really just shines in terms of sounds and melody.

So I just want to set a few things straight with some questions, and hopefully some answers! :cheers:

The 12 bar I - IV - V - (modal vi occasionally) is to be used in what way when it comes to song structure? I'm talking ABCBA (not talking about arc specifically) just saying that so you know what I mean by structure - you know, verse, chorus, coda, blah?

Specifically, I'm wondering if the I - I - I - I (first line of a I - IV - V 12 bar) is supposed to be taken literally as 4 measures? For instance are we, as songwriters, supposed to just loop I - I - I - I - IV - IV - I - I - V - IV - I - I forever and ever and act like the chorus and verse are just going to land wherever the hell they decide to land? Or is there some manipulation going on under the veil? Or do verses usually come about in the I - I - I - I while IV - IV - I - I - V - IV - I - I acts as a chorus? OR is my confusion over the whole matter what makes compositional experimentation an existing thing?

I feel like there are no rules but its the general consensus to have verses jump around in just one chord (with w/ varying passing tones ofc) and then use the later two lines of the 12 bar progression sheet as the chorus. Or maybe some gray junk in between.

Anyway, as I understand it now, a good starting point is to use the insanely simplistic 12 bar set up with I - IV - V and making the chord progression sonically interesting with chordal trickery (inversions, spacing, other voicing), right? Or am I missing something important. I think I am. :cry:
 
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Sounds like you need to read this ~ Bandcoach ~ Beginning Theory 3: Song Structures ~ first before I can offer any deeper advice

Thanks for the article it was helpful and answered a few questions :victory: but not all of them. Here is what I'm still confused about.

Does AABA translate directly into VVCV -- i know there are a couple examples where it does but does it always? I don't really know what the units of songwriting are, if that makes sense.

For instance, is I - I - I - I - IV - IV - I - I - V - IV - I - I what the A (and the letters afterward) of AABA represents? So that the everything uses I - I - I - I - IV - IV - I - I - V - IV - I - I and goes through it fully?

Or am I completely wrong?

Where I get stuck is. If one were to write a verse and then a chorus using I - IV - V 12 bar. What would the chord progression per bar look like?

----------!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually, let me be more specific. I'm looking at "Love at First Sight" by Kylie Minogue (even though Stuart Price wasn't attached lul, hey its a good song) and it is simply:

Cmaj7 (one bar) - D - Em (one bar together), over and over. Through the verses and choruses and codas and everything. One thing to note is the song is in G major which means those chords are actually IV - V - vi.

What the hell does that have to do with 12 bar blues. Shouldn't it be technically be:

Cmaj7 - Cmaj7 - Cmaj7 - Cmaj7 - D - D - Cmaj7 - Cmaj7 - Em - Em - Cmaj7 - Cmaj7 or something?

Maybe I'm an idiot thinking all pop songs are based on 12 bar structure but it seems a lot of pop songs are simply three chords over and over that seemingly have nothing whatsoever to do with 12 bar. So when I read in books or hear somewhere that pop is heavily influenced by 12 bar structure and then actually look at a pop song it doesn't make sense.
 
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Thanks for the article it was helpful and answered a few questions :victory: but not all of them. Here is what I'm still confused about.

Does AABA translate directly into VVCV -- i know there are a couple examples where it does but does it always? I don't really know what the units of songwriting are, if that makes sense.

A ~ 1st section of the piece usually 8 bars but can be shorter or longer
A ~ Repeat of the 1st section
B ~ 2nd section of the piece, same length as first usually a modulation away and then back to
A ~ Repeat of the first section of the piece

AABA Can be VVCV or CCVC or VCBC where B is the bridge

For instance, is I - I - I - I - IV - IV - I - I - V - IV - I - I what the A (and the letters afterward) of AABA represents? So that the everything uses I - I - I - I - IV - IV - I - I - V - IV - I - I and goes through it fully?

Or am I completely wrong?

The more I read through your questions, the more I become convinced that you have been reading about lyrical structures rather than chord structures.

Consider Johnny B Goode, a 12 bar blues.

1st time through is the introduction
2nd time through is the verse
3rd time through is the chorus
4th time through is the verse
5th time through is the chorus
6th time through is the solo
7th time through is the solo
8th time through is the verse
9th time through is the chorus
10th time through is the chorus and tag.

So structure is I-V-C-V-C-S-S-V-C-C-T. If we were to use our letters to define harmonic structure we would get: A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A. the stops and starts in the intro and solos do not change the chord progression.

Now consider Rock Around the clock:


Introduction
1st time through is the verse 4 bars chorus 8 bars
2nd time through is the verse 4 bars chorus 8 bars
3rd time through is the saxophone solo
4th time through is the verse 4 bars chorus 8 bars
5th time through is the guitar solo
6th time through is the verse 4 bars chorus 8 bars
Tag.

So structure is I-V-C-V-C-S-V-C-S-V-C-T. If we were to use our letters to define harmonic structure we would get: A-B-C-B-C-BC-B-C-BC-B-C-D. There are four distinct harmonic ideas present in this song even though two of them combine to make the 12 bar blues progression.

Where I get stuck is. If one were to write a verse and then a chorus using I - IV - V 12 bar. What would the chord progression per bar look like?

----------!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Whatever works for the given song.

Remember that even earlier blues songs used an AAB lyric structure and an AAA rhyming structure per iteration of the progression. In this case A was the Verse and source of the complaint and B was the chorus and the punchline/point of the complaint:

I hate to see the evening sun go down - I /// | I /// | I /// | I /// |
I hate to see the evening sun go down - IV /// | IV /// | I /// | I /// |
Cause my woman she done left this town - V /// | IV /// | I / IV / | I / V / ||

Harmonically, we would have to give the structure as 3 four bar sections A-B-C or simply as 1 longer 12 bar section, A

Actually, let me be more specific. I'm looking at "Love at First Sight" by Kylie Minogue (even though Stuart Price wasn't attached lul, hey its a good song) and it is simply:

Cmaj7 (one bar) - D - Em (one bar together), over and over. Through the verses and choruses and codas and everything. One thing to note is the song is in G major which means those chords are actually IV - V - vi.

More likely E minor and bVI7-bVII-i.

However, this highlights my point about the difference between lyrical structures and harmonic structures perfectly. Harmonically this song is one long B section.

What the hell does that have to do with 12 bar blues. Shouldn't it be technically be:

Cmaj7 - Cmaj7 - Cmaj7 - Cmaj7 - D - D - Cmaj7 - Cmaj7 - Em - Em - Cmaj7 - Cmaj7 or something?

That would be a reasonable assertion, however, as you note it doesn't apply in this case.

Maybe I'm an idiot thinking all pop songs are based on 12 bar structure but it seems a lot of pop songs are simply three chords over and over that seemingly have nothing whatsoever to do with 12 bar. So when I read in books or hear somewhere that pop is heavily influenced by 12 bar structure and then actually look at a pop song it doesn't make sense.

No, not an idiot.

When I teach the beginnings of rock I point out the influences and there are many:
  • Jazz - Instruments, song forms, harmonic structures
  • Blues - Instruments, song forms, harmonic structures
  • Country - Instruments, song forms harmonic structures
  • Youth Culture - lyrical content
are the key ingredients.

The song forms are
  • 32 bar song form in the guise of AABA and ABAA
  • 12 bar blues
  • 24 bar blues
  • 16 bar blues
  • 8 bar song form (reduced ideas form 32 bar song form)
  • 16 bar song form (reduced ideas form 32 bar song form)
among others.

The thing is today, look at trap music - 2 chords iii/7 - I or iii - I/3.

Then Kylie song, 3 chords that can be related in different ways.

It is not enough to see I, IV and V and say 12 bar blues influence, it could just as easily be country influence, e.g.

C / / / | G / / / | G / / / | C / / / | F / / / | C / / / | G / / / | C / G / :||

[mp3]http://www.bandcoach.org/fp/audio/countryInfluences-01.mp3[/mp3]

or

C / / / | G / / / | G / / / | C / / / | F / / / | F / / / | C / / / | G / / / ||
C / / / | C/E / / / | F / / / | F#dim7 / / / | C/G / / / | G / / / | C / / / | G / / / :||

[mp3]http://www.bandcoach.org/fp/audio/countryInfluences-02.mp3[/mp3]

Anyway, that is my first in depth response; ask more if you are still uncertain.
 
ha ha u guys are funny, I can see the mix up between chord structure and lyrical structure(aaba for chords, aab for lyrics over a blues). I think your'e over thinking this tho. A blues is 12 bars because it feels right, not because of some math equation that makes it right. if its not a 12 bar, chances are its some 8 or 16 bar form.
 
Unfortunately you're under-thinking it and don't get it as a result - this was not about formulae or equations or feeling right, it was about why do we say that all pop music is based in the 12 bar blues, something that the OP has read in many different places, but which from his own recent investigations and my own more extended investigations and research and analysis, it clearly is not.

The OP had some seriously good questions about structure as it existed and how do we use it now.

I provided answers that explained how it worked and how it works now - if that is over-thinking then clearly anyone who listens and trys to jack a beat is over-thinking it too.
 
Unfortunately you're under-thinking it and don't get it as a result - this was not about formulae or equations or feeling right, it was about why do we say that all pop music is based in the 12 bar blues, something that the OP has read in many different places, but which from his own recent investigations and my own more extended investigations and research and analysis, it clearly is not.

The OP had some seriously good questions about structure as it existed and how do we use it now.

I provided answers that explained how it worked and how it works now - if that is over-thinking then clearly anyone who listens and trys to jack a beat is over-thinking it too.
just trying to throw my 2 cents in, sorry if ur panties got bunched

---------- Post added at 09:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:16 PM ----------

and where do u get beat jacking from that?
 
very clear and concise, bandcoach. it is very much appreciated!

The more I read through your questions, the more I become convinced that you have been reading about lyrical structures rather than chord structures.
i see! well, that statement right there cleans a lot of this up. i always love new vocabz haha. things are just about clear!

B ~ 2nd section of the piece, same length as first usually a modulation away and then back to
just to be crystal. when you say modulation. are you referring to changing keys all together or simply changing your melodic center, say from tonic to subdominant?

Remember that even earlier blues songs used an AAB lyric structure and an AAA rhyming structure per iteration of the progression. In this case A was the Verse and source of the complaint and B was the chorus and the punchline/point of the complaint:

I hate to see the evening sun go down - I /// | I /// | I /// | I /// |
I hate to see the evening sun go down - IV /// | IV /// | I /// | I /// |
Cause my woman she done left this town - V /// | IV /// | I / IV / | I / V / ||

Harmonically, we would have to give the structure as 3 four bar sections A-B-C or simply as 1 longer 12 bar section, A
what is sounds like is 12 bar blues is simply a template for harmonic structure and has nothing to do with lyrical structure -- which is completely up to you and relative to the song at hand or the genre you're working in.

Then Kylie song, 3 chords that can be related in different ways.
about that. on a more specific level. while i am aware that they can be tied into one another in different patterns im wondering about how you take it up a notch. what about using these things ive heard about reverse cadence, or diminishing/augmenting or other fun voicing. to my ear those types of things breed interest. is there a place i can learn about that chordal trickery (loosely translated to "tricky voicing", i guess) i named this thread about, in a more focused and specific way than these random theory books i keep nodding off to? =P

meanwhile, in yemen...

so all of those times i've heard that popular music is essentially 12 bar blues the people/books have just been plane wrong or possibly outdated? i find that disappointing. seems the only thing they got right is that a lot of songs are based around the major chords of the ionian or mixo. it seems like popular music has moved away from 12 bar blues (more toward 16 than 12 imo) and even I - IV - V in some cases and maybe i should get that out of my head.

i guess if we push past all the technical jargon, the big question is how does one analyze a popular piece? aside from looking at progressions, then bass clef and treble clef to find themes and motifs, or is that the only way?

what i would really like is if anyone would be able to help me out and give me a short batch of things that i should look for in a piece of popular sheet music or things i can do to aid analysis. right now - completely unrelated to pop, just a piece i LOVE - im dissecting the full score of Jupiter, Bringer of Jollity by Holst which is currently breaking my brain with all its mixolydian-ness, different keys and insane amount of movement. and without a chord progression all i can get out of it is general melodic movement and the way he repeats themes and flirts/points in the direction of movement in the following few bars.

and...

just trying to throw my 2 cents in, sorry if ur panties got bunched
sorry if ur panties got bunched
panties got bunched
there is no need for that, come on man!
 
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Clarity on chord progressions

Google this "How Chord Progressions Work"

There is a free lesson on the site that you can download as a pdf which will help.
 
I've skip read this but just a couple of points.

12 bar blues is just a structure which sounds good. You can use it as a verse, a chorus, or both. You can add other structures to this or you can just play 4 of these in a row if you want. The basic rule in music is that "If it sounds good, then it is good", therefore there is no reason why you can't try altering things a bit with 12 bar blues to create something different.

Listen to some songs to get a feel for what it is. (Roll over beethoven, Good golly miss molly etc)

Saying that 12 bar blues is the basis for all pop music is nonsense. One of the first structures in modern pop music would be a better thing to say.

12 bar blues was popular when the mainstream consisted of only 3 chords. (The 50's) Nowadays music is more rich than this and there is less need for such long structures.
 
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