changing key signatures within a song
- Thread starter elchamo
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initialproductions
Guest
turnarounds....ii V I, IV V I, IV iv I, theres others i dont feel like naming all of them.
Say ur original peice was in Cmajor and ur progression was Cmaj Am Fmaj Gmaj and u wanted to go to the key of Dmajor....lets pick a turnaround..ii IV I. The ii in D is Em, V is Amaj, I is D. It also works better if the first chord in the turnaround is in the original key, like this example, Em is in Cmajor and Dmajor. You dont even need turnarounds all the time, u could just use common chords.
Say ur original peice was in Cmajor and ur progression was Cmaj Am Fmaj Gmaj and u wanted to go to the key of Dmajor....lets pick a turnaround..ii IV I. The ii in D is Em, V is Amaj, I is D. It also works better if the first chord in the turnaround is in the original key, like this example, Em is in Cmajor and Dmajor. You dont even need turnarounds all the time, u could just use common chords.
I II VI isn't a very common chord structure. Basically, when you speak of scales, you speak of intervals... The 3rd, the 5th, the 7th, etc. But, there are chords that fall within this scale pattern that are chords that work with every particular interval of the scale. Except, they are called degrees in order to differentiate between notes (intervals) and chords (degrees). The roman numerals are usually used to indicate the degree. And, it all really comes down to the I being the starting chord that reflects the key (major/minor). It is simple and hard all at the same time. But, once you understand it, it is only simple. Basically, if you are starting in a Major key, you start with a major chord. Usually, to make it work perfectly, you use 4 tone chords (the ionian being a Maj7). So, you start with a 4-tone major chord and then move each each voice of the chord up 3 intervals. That will give you your next chord. And, you keep doing this and eventually after 7 chords, your eighth (octave) will be the same exact chord that you started with. Except, it will be one harmonic (octave) higher.
The reason why it is advisible to use 4 tones is that you are including the most common extention... The 7th. The 7th is what helps to identify the "dominance" of a particular chord (though, working in triads can also show you dominance, it just isn't as , ahem, extended) So, a major scale using chord degrees is as follows: I=Maj7, II=min7, III=min7, IV=Maj7, V=7, VI=min7, VII=half diminished (min7b5) and then back to I=Maj7, except it is an octave higher. To do the same with a minor key, you just start with a minor chord or a minor7th and move each voice of the chord up 3 intervals. Pretty easy.
It is a lot easier if you write the scale down in notation. But, do not write it linearly. Write it as if all the notes in the scale are a chord. write all of the notes within a chord across the entire staff (not just the number of notes in the scale, write them all the way across the staff). Then, start with your major chord and count 3 intervals up on every voice and you will arrive at your next chord. In notation, you will be able to see the note relationships right on paper in front of you. It is quite a revelation. This system is what is used to harmonize your chords and it is used to determine what chords get what voicing in what degree of the scale. It is very useful for constructing the chordal structure of a song depending upon what chord progression you are using. And, as for progressions, those are usually in a formula of 4ths and 5ths. I IV V, II V I, etc. All progressions are variations on 4ths and 5ths. And, the chords used in those positions are typically chosen from the degree system that I have described above.
You can look at any piece of music and see these patterns. It makes one ask what really is new in music. The answer is that there is nothing really new. It is all just recycled with different emphasis on particular notes. Essentially, it has all been done before. Here on FP, though, the focus is on the beat. Which, is a much more simplified take on the recycling of music. It relies on the rhythm rather than the harmony and melody (though, those are present in a simpler form). Sure, it can be quite complex. But, nothing in any particular style of music has not been done at some prior time. So, emphasis is the key to breaking apart. How you stress a note in that common pattern of what our ear likes to hear.
The reason why it is advisible to use 4 tones is that you are including the most common extention... The 7th. The 7th is what helps to identify the "dominance" of a particular chord (though, working in triads can also show you dominance, it just isn't as , ahem, extended) So, a major scale using chord degrees is as follows: I=Maj7, II=min7, III=min7, IV=Maj7, V=7, VI=min7, VII=half diminished (min7b5) and then back to I=Maj7, except it is an octave higher. To do the same with a minor key, you just start with a minor chord or a minor7th and move each voice of the chord up 3 intervals. Pretty easy.
It is a lot easier if you write the scale down in notation. But, do not write it linearly. Write it as if all the notes in the scale are a chord. write all of the notes within a chord across the entire staff (not just the number of notes in the scale, write them all the way across the staff). Then, start with your major chord and count 3 intervals up on every voice and you will arrive at your next chord. In notation, you will be able to see the note relationships right on paper in front of you. It is quite a revelation. This system is what is used to harmonize your chords and it is used to determine what chords get what voicing in what degree of the scale. It is very useful for constructing the chordal structure of a song depending upon what chord progression you are using. And, as for progressions, those are usually in a formula of 4ths and 5ths. I IV V, II V I, etc. All progressions are variations on 4ths and 5ths. And, the chords used in those positions are typically chosen from the degree system that I have described above.
You can look at any piece of music and see these patterns. It makes one ask what really is new in music. The answer is that there is nothing really new. It is all just recycled with different emphasis on particular notes. Essentially, it has all been done before. Here on FP, though, the focus is on the beat. Which, is a much more simplified take on the recycling of music. It relies on the rhythm rather than the harmony and melody (though, those are present in a simpler form). Sure, it can be quite complex. But, nothing in any particular style of music has not been done at some prior time. So, emphasis is the key to breaking apart. How you stress a note in that common pattern of what our ear likes to hear.
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zionproductions
New member
^^^^^^^^currently teaching myself this...Great explanation! Thx
No problem. Just so that you know, it looks pretty scary at first. Especially if you haven't had much prior training. But, like I said, once you get it it is much easier and you end up hitting yourself in the head saying "why did it take me so long to get this". But, even once you do get it, it can become all that more difficult once again if you choose to extend your learning in this area. That is the thing with music theory, there is no stopping. You can take any theory and just keep going on forever with it. There is no end.
S
straypixel
Guest
jaffi said:
Sorry - I have to take issue with the points in that paragraph. Whilst using the 7th in chords is very common practice (being derived from Blues, as many things were), Roman numeral chords do not 'automatically' imply that the 7th is added. Chord I is simply the major tonic chord, no 7th. Adding the superscript 7 (i.e. I7) shows that it has the 7th extension.
And the idea of 'dominance' is less abstract than you suggest. Chord V7, the dominant seventh has a tendency to 'lean' to I. The seventh destabilises any tonic-like qualities of the chord as the 7th degree in chord V would tend to resolve to the 3rd degree in chord I. Although there is no musical rule against having successive 7th chords, it can lead to ambiguity over the tonal centre, particularly if chord I has the 7th.
Elchamo and Zion, don't worry about this too much for now. I would suggest you get a respected theory/harmony book in conjunction with asking questions on this board. Good luck.
zionproductions
New member
straypixel said:
Hey, again thx to you and Jaffi...there is a lot to learn with this, but just the bit I've retained over the last two years has improved my music and understanding already.
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A.I.Music
New member
Not all chord harmonizations are in 7ths like mentioned above. There are sequences to the harmonization of chords, depending on if they are
MAJOR
MINOR (HARMONIC, MELODIC and NATURAL)
SEVENTH
JAZZ
ETC.
Harmonization of chords falls into a key of a particular song (this is the theory, theories are made to be broken). so if you took the key of C, you would have the following
MAJOR
..1..... 2......3......4.....5......6....7
Cmaj Dmin Emin Fmaj Gmaj Amin Bdim
..I.......II.....III....IV.....V.....VI....VII
MAJOR 7th
..1........2.......3........4....5.....6.......7
Cmaj7 Dmin7 Emin7 Fmaj7 G7 Amin7 Bmin7b5
...I........II......III......IV....V.....VI.....VII
So if someone ever said to you, we're making a song in the key of C, but I want you to play the I V VII chords, you would then play C (being I = 1), G(being V = 5) and B (being VII = 7), that's called harmonization of a scale, using the tones in a scale to play chord sequences. It works that way for all scales, although they get A LOT more technical and difficult to understand (that's going into jazz theory).
Scales:
C : C D E F G A B C
G : G A B C D E F#G
D : D E F#G A B C#D
A : A B C#D E F#G#A
E : E F#G#A B C#D#E
B : B C#D#E F#G#A#B
F#:F#G#A#B C#D#E#F#
C#:C#D#E#F#G#A#B#C#
Each notes of those scales are harmonized as I II III IV V VI VII.
Also when changing keys between songs, look for the Pivot chord (chords that are common in key signatures), but generally try and aim for the V(5) or VII(7) chords because they have a strong pull towards the I(1) chord.
Hope that helps, if not, it was an informative rambling... :c)
MAJOR
MINOR (HARMONIC, MELODIC and NATURAL)
SEVENTH
JAZZ
ETC.
Harmonization of chords falls into a key of a particular song (this is the theory, theories are made to be broken). so if you took the key of C, you would have the following
MAJOR
..1..... 2......3......4.....5......6....7
Cmaj Dmin Emin Fmaj Gmaj Amin Bdim
..I.......II.....III....IV.....V.....VI....VII
MAJOR 7th
..1........2.......3........4....5.....6.......7
Cmaj7 Dmin7 Emin7 Fmaj7 G7 Amin7 Bmin7b5
...I........II......III......IV....V.....VI.....VII
So if someone ever said to you, we're making a song in the key of C, but I want you to play the I V VII chords, you would then play C (being I = 1), G(being V = 5) and B (being VII = 7), that's called harmonization of a scale, using the tones in a scale to play chord sequences. It works that way for all scales, although they get A LOT more technical and difficult to understand (that's going into jazz theory).
Scales:
C : C D E F G A B C
G : G A B C D E F#G
D : D E F#G A B C#D
A : A B C#D E F#G#A
E : E F#G#A B C#D#E
B : B C#D#E F#G#A#B
F#:F#G#A#B C#D#E#F#
C#:C#D#E#F#G#A#B#C#
Each notes of those scales are harmonized as I II III IV V VI VII.
Also when changing keys between songs, look for the Pivot chord (chords that are common in key signatures), but generally try and aim for the V(5) or VII(7) chords because they have a strong pull towards the I(1) chord.
Hope that helps, if not, it was an informative rambling... :c)
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darnbni99a
New member
hell ya. im currently tryna teach myself this stuff ..great info
A.I.Music
New member
Sweet man, but do yourself a favour. If you do wanna take it all very seriously. Go to someone who can teach you. Unfortunately (learnt this from experience) there is only soooo much you can learn for yourself before the theory because numbingly confusing.
Also the best method to put this all into practice is with a musical instrument. Learn your key signatures as best as you can. There's NOTHING wrong with knowing your theory, it will only help the songwriting process.
Best of luck dude!
Also the best method to put this all into practice is with a musical instrument. Learn your key signatures as best as you can. There's NOTHING wrong with knowing your theory, it will only help the songwriting process.
Best of luck dude!
S
straypixel
Guest
My point entirely. Thanks for the backup on this one.A.I.Music said:
Just goes to prove that you really do need a serious published harmony guide rather than people who think they know what they're talking about.
A good, if academic, book for learning this is the "Structural Functions of Harmony" by Arnold Schoenberg. It came out ages ago, but it contains a lot of harmony goodness, including modes, progressions, the circle of fifths, regions (tonic, dominiant, sub dominant), and modulations and not just what they are, but how they are related to each other and all kinds of "I IV V I" notation along side of actual music, - of a classical nature.
I agree with A.I Music, it's a ton easier to learn this stuff if you're in a class. But writing music and reading music from an artist you admire is also a great way to learn.
Good Luck!
I agree with A.I Music, it's a ton easier to learn this stuff if you're in a class. But writing music and reading music from an artist you admire is also a great way to learn.
Good Luck!
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