Can someone help me with the tonicization in this song? (Key changes)

A

aceover9

New member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bL91scCpc6M

I can't decipher what key this song is in. It seems to use a bunch of notes that disqualify various keys. I've been researching and have found out that ducking into different key changes is often called "tonicization" or something. It seems like this song is doing it. Like an F# or an A# won't fit in the song but suddenly they will for a bar or two.

Can anyone help me figure out what key(s) this song is in?

Thanks in advance. I feel like if I can get some heads up on this I can understand what all this is about a little easier.
 
Hey aceover9,

No, this is not tonicization, but yes, you're right, it uses some "weird" chords. But in this case, this is called "Modal Interchange".

Essentially, you are borrowing chords from other keys.

The song is in A dorian (a, b, c, d, e, f#, g) but there's plenty of chords borrowed from other scales. I'll do a course on that soon on my website.

Tonicization means actually switching keys for a short period of time (introducing a new tonic), which is not done here. A minor is always the tonic.

If this raised more questions than it answered, let me know :)

Best,
Friedemann
 
I know this reply is way late but I figured I'd try anyway. This did raise a ton more questions and I tried doing some research on my own while out of town then I forgot to come back to this.

I can sort of tell where the song is borrowing chords because F notes are in the song. I just don't know how or why this works. I think it would be a useful thing to know to add more variety to my compositions.

Any info is appreciated. I checked your website and didn't find the lesson on this but did find some other ones that caught my eye.
 
Hey aceover9,

Glad you found your way back to answering :)

A course on that will come some day, but it's still down the road (right now I'm working on the Lyrics Master Files and a new Youtube show).
Basically, borrowed chords work like this:

Say you're in A minor. (btw: notes are always uncapitalized, chords are capitalized in standard notation, otherwise it gets confusing)

a b c d e f g

that gives you the chords

Am, Bo, C, Dm, Em, F, G

If you want to expand on this key and use more chords, you can use chords from other scales in the key of A. The most common other scale is the major scale:

a b c# d e f# g#

giving you the chords

A, Bm, C#m, D, E, F#m, G#o

You can use all of these in your Aminor song as well for a different type of sound. Check out the chord progression to Radiohead's "Creep" for this:

G B C Cmin

Effectively, this is (in Gmajor):

I, borrowed III from Gminor, IV, borrowed iv from G minor

Does that make sense? :)

And have you checked out this PDF with 143 Chord Progressions yet? This also puts you on my mailing list with updates about the youtube show and new products :)

Best,
Friedemann
 
I really have a lot to learn. I'm in this weird position where I can hear what's happening but don't have the building blocks in place to understand all the nomenclature and lettering. I will do some research so I can understand exactly what lettering such as

A, Bm, C#m, D, E, F#m, G#o

is saying. I know it's chords but I can't interpret in my head which chords they are referring to and what their note make up is which is a barrier to my visualizing what exactly is happening during these modal interchanges.

Thanks for all the input. I'll be checking that link you sent as well. I'm definitely in need of a chart at this stage.
 
aceover9 said:
I really have a lot to learn. I'm in this weird position where I can hear what's happening but don't have the building blocks in place to understand all the nomenclature and lettering. I will do some research so I can understand exactly what lettering such as

A, Bm, C#m, D, E, F#m, G#o

is saying. I know it's chords but I can't interpret in my head which chords they are referring to and what their note make up is which is a barrier to my visualizing what exactly is happening during these modal interchanges.

Thanks for all the input. I'll be checking that link you sent as well. I'm definitely in need of a chart at this stage.
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Why not just take some music lessons? This is the simplest/most obvious solution to your musical problem. Or do you think "free because of the internet" is actually free if you're spending hours "finding" information instead of spending hours "applying" information? Because, researching is not learning. "Researching" when have no structure or framework for what you're trying to learn (or even how to apply it) is a monumental waste of time. And your experience is proof that this "google research" learning method does not work. But, whatever-it's your time wasted, not mine.
Now, Holistic isn't going to tell you this, because he is trying to draw traffic to his site, even though he is very knowledgeable. But, his motives are self-serving. You'd get more out of what Holistic is offering (and be a bigger benefit to him) if you just took some basic one-hour-a-week piano lessons.
 
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Hello again aceover9,

If you're interested in (a) skype lesson(s) write me a PM. As Pumpthrust suggests,
this would be the easiest and quickest way to get a grasp of music theory.

Best,
Friedemann
 
Pumpthrust said:
Why not just take some music lessons? This is the simplest/most obvious solution to your musical problem. Or do you think "free because of the internet" is actually free if you're spending hours "finding" information instead of spending hours "applying" information? Because, researching is not learning. "Researching" when have no structure or framework for what you're trying to learn (or even how to apply it) is a monumental waste of time. And your experience is proof that this "google research" learning method does not work. But, whatever-it's your time wasted, not mine.
Now, Holistic isn't going to tell you this, because he is trying to draw traffic to his site, even though he is very knowledgeable. But, his motives are self-serving. You'd get more out of what Holistic is offering (and be a bigger benefit to him) if you just took some basic one-hour-a-week piano lessons.
Click to expand...


There's always someone like you on forums like these. I'd say an even bigger waste of time is projecting a bunch of things onto forum posters so you can give them the what's for. You'd be better off just contacting the site owner and telling him or her to shut it down and recommend people take lessons instead of ask specific questions. As far as HolisticSongwriting having self-serving motives, well, 1: obviously and 2: who cares? If I learn a few things? The problem with projecting onto other people is it requires you to replace their situation entirely. It's not that you are not correct that googling random things is not the most efficient way to learn, it's that you're wrong that not doing so would mean I could learn in a more structured fashion. I am not in a position to take classes right now (probably something you could have confirmed before trying to set me straight). So your suggestion basically erodes down to "stop researching and just learn nothing instead" with that considered. And that's no good, is it?



HolisticSongwriting said:
Hello again aceover9,

If you're interested in (a) skype lesson(s) write me a PM. As Pumpthrust suggests,
this would be the easiest and quickest way to get a grasp of music theory.

Best,
Friedemann
Click to expand...


I'll keep that in mind. This topic was made out of a budding curiosity for a song that I liked and why it could do what it did. Contrary to what Pumpthrust suggested, "free" isn't what brings me here nor is it why I haven't taken any courses. I simply don't have the available time nor a fixed schedule (case in point it's 4AM here and I'm currently on break from working on a project). I'm actually really big on spending money on professionals who can save me time (what with hundreds of dollars spent on hiring musicians to play parts in the last few months). Classes/lessons are a different beast because while they save time and are a more efficient way to learn there's the downside of not being able to just pull a teacher up on my phone at the Chinese Restaurant.

I'm sure I'm a long way from even getting to the subject of modal interchange. However eventually I'd like to go about learning this stuff in a structured way and SKype lessons would be the way to go since they'd be at m own pace. Check your PMs.

Thanks!
 
aceover9, are you hung up on trying to learn the technicalities of the how or why they did this?

im not trying to be a d, but im sincerely curious because i sometimes get hyperfocused on the technical aspect of music as well. this is when i always run into problems. i have to separate out my technical mind from my creative mind, when learning, then i chill out and (attempt to lol) let them coexist when I'm actually making music. you might already have your own method, but maybe this slight suggestion could help, i dunno.

Chopin, Rachmaninoff and Monk did some weird shit, but their madness was their own and not for anyone else to solve, so we all just sit back and admire.:cool:
it is important to learn from people you admire and inspire you, but sometimes the magic isnt meant to be solved man:cheers::cheers:
 
Sooooo....you don't have time to take lessons, but you had time to write out a long, embittered excuse for why why you can't? Mmmmkay.
 
AudioPhorm said:
aceover9, are you hung up on trying to learn the technicalities of the how or why they did this?

im not trying to be a d, but im sincerely curious because i sometimes get hyperfocused on the technical aspect of music as well. this is when i always run into problems. i have to separate out my technical mind from my creative mind, when learning, then i chill out and (attempt to lol) let them coexist when I'm actually making music. you might already have your own method, but maybe this slight suggestion could help, i dunno.

Chopin, Rachmaninoff and Monk did some weird shit, but their madness was their own and not for anyone else to solve, so we all just sit back and admire.:cool:
it is important to learn from people you admire and inspire you, but sometimes the magic isnt meant to be solved man:cheers::cheers:
Click to expand...


Honestly it's really pedestrian. I really like the song and was deciphering the key/scale of the song and all that so I could mess around with it on a guitar. It's really as simple as that. Thing is I couldn't really match it with a consistent scale because there was no reconciling the f's and f#'s in the song. That's when I got curious. I was playing along to one part but then I thought I must be wrong because no way the song could have that F# in there based on what I was going with. Eventually it became clear that something was happening that was making those things work and that's when I made the topic here to see what technique was being used. I'm not really fretting over it with any particular project. I've tried to key around with the technique on a keyboard and I am kind of interested to know exactly why those techniques are working in that song and what the science is behind them. When it comes to my own work I try not to fuss with anything I don't fully understand. It's just that the song in question is really good and does weird things to my brain when i hear it. Can't help but be curious.
 
ah I see, I think i overthought the initial post. your reply makes it crystal clear though.

doesn't jazz do that kinda stuff often? they throw in those chords that, during the tension, sound even distonic at times...but then when the resolve comes your like "damn, that was badass"
 
Pumpthrust said:
Sooooo....you don't have time to take lessons, but you had time to write out a long, embittered excuse for why why you can't? Mmmmkay.
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Well, to be fair you could write an entire book sitting on the can but you probably wouldn't want to take lessons from a teacher in such a position. ;) To each his own.

I for one think a forum is an excellent place to ask questions like this because it's a quick and easy way to get answers, plus if anyone ever googles this exact question they'll have an answer as well.
it is important to learn from people you admire and inspire you, but sometimes the magic isnt meant to be solved man:cheers::cheers:
Click to expand...

You know I used to think like this as well. Now I've shifted to the position that music can be even more amazing once you know how they did it. I'm still amazed by some of the songs I hear every day (and I have a Bachelor's Degree in Music). :)

im not trying to be a d, but im sincerely curious because i sometimes get hyperfocused on the technical aspect of music as well. this is when i always run into problems. i have to separate out my technical mind from my creative mind, when learning, then i chill out and (attempt to lol) let them coexist when I'm actually making music. you might already have your own method, but maybe this slight suggestion could help, i dunno.
Click to expand...

This is a very good point though - always have a creative and an analytical phase when you create songs. Nothing will screw your songs up more than thinking too much in technical terms when what's really important is conveying emotion. That being said, creativity still needs to be presented well, which is usually where the technique comes in (ergo, a second, analytical phase where you figure out what you wrote and make it better).
 
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