Adding 9ths, 11ths, 13ths to chords

[jeffersonparish]

Hello geniuses,


I'm primary a lyricist and topline writer for others; I'm not a musician by any means. However, I've been learning music theory very slowly to help me communicate with the more musically literate people I deal with.


For chords, I've finally progressed beyond basic triads, and I'm now comfortable creating progressions with 7ths and some 9ths.


11ths and 13ths have especially become a challenge. Not so much the upper notes themselves but using them in progressions without sounding forced or out of place. I've found a lot of songs with 2-5-1 progressions that use them, but when I try it, I find myself playing every chord in the scale to find the next matching chord.


For some reason, I've been okay with using dominant 9th chords but when I make it major 9ths and minor / major 11ths and 13ths, I get stuck finding the chords before and after it.


Do any of you use any common patterns with progressions for these upper extension chords???


Thanks,


Jay

 

[HolisticSongwriting]

Hey Jay,

I'm not the best to answer your question as I don't play THAT much jazz, but I
would like to point out one thing in particular:

First of all, most people say flat and sharp 11 or 13, not minor/major (this would
even be considered wrong for the 11. The correct term would be diminished or
augmented). Just a quick note

Secondly, be careful with the 11 in major as it classifies as an avoid note. Especially
since you're a topline writer, this is something to look out for.

I've written an article on this on my blog which you can check out here:
Do Not Write Another Melody Until You’ve Read This (Avoid Notes) | Holistic Songwriting

Looking forward to all the other answers,
Friedemann

 

[jeffersonparish]

First of all, most people say flat and sharp 11 or 13, not minor/major (this would
even be considered wrong for the 11. The correct term would be diminished or
augmented). Just a quick note

I literally was just corrected on that by another guitarist! I'm getting all these terms down one by one...

You also just made me notice a typo in my original post – I was trying to say DOMINANT...

Gracias!

Secondly, be careful with the 11 in major as it classifies as an avoid note. Especially
since you're a topline writer, this is something to look out for.

I've written an article on this on my blog which you can check out here:
Do Not Write Another Melody Until You’ve Read This (Avoid Notes) | Holistic Songwriting

Looking forward to all the other answers,
Friedemann

Do you have any music of your own that I can listen to that demonstrates what you're talking about?

I'm only learning theory after years of writing by ear, so I'm in the stage where the text helps but hearing it is better.

Can you maybe post a link or two to one of your songs/compositions that uses extended chords???

 

[hezekiah]

Hey, have a listen to the stuff I play. I am all about chord progressions, extensions 9th, 11ths. The smooth progressions come from "borrowing" chords from other keys.
See an example below, and check me out if you want to download the MIDI files for learning, also some videos.

 

[scrapheaper]

The voicings (sort of inversions) are hugely important, also the context in which the notes are added. Almost always the notes get spread over two or three different octaves, which reduces clashing. It's pretty difficult to play a 9th, 11th or 13th chord with only one hand.

9ths are the easiest to work with. To start with getting used to the sound, avoid putting the 9th at the very top of the chord,
Also try to avoid playing R - 9 -3 all in the same octave because it gets a bit dense.

11ths are harder to work with. Remember that although 9 chords always include the 7th as well (or major 7th for maj9 chords), 11 chords also include the 7th but do not include the 9th necessarily.

Major 11th chords are very very uncommon because of the clash between the major third and 11th as holistic songwriting says. If you drop the fifth from the chord (it's not particularly important for these big extended chords) you can have a maj7 #11, which I usually play as a polychord, for example Bm over a bass of C and E (C -E- B - D - F#) (R- 3-maj7-9-11). Major 7 #11 chords are a nice alternative to a normal major seventh or major 9th chord with a bit more unusual flavour.

13th chords are dominant chords. They have quite a bit of tension but not quite as much as the really weird 7 #9 chords. I usually play them as R - b7 - 3 - 13 but there's a good polychord voicing of R-3-b7 -3-13-R, e.g C -E-Bb-E-A-C, where EAC is a second inversion A minor triad played over a C7 chord.
There's also a major 13th chord with a major 7 instead of flat 7, used quite similarly to the maj7-#11 chord a lot of the time.

Major 7ths, major 9ths, major 13ths and major 7 #11s are all sort of 'root' chords. They don't resolve- they are resolved to. They are a starting and finishing point with a more interesting sound that just a normal major triad, if that makes sense.

Hope that you find some useful info in amongst that rambling

 

[HolisticSongwriting]

Hey Jeffersonparish,

First of all: scrapheaper's comment is what I meant by someone else will know better than me Great comment!
The only thing I learned differently is that an 11th chord also always includes the 9th, but you never have to play
any options you don't want to play anyway.

To add to what sceapheader said, you can also try substituting the root for the 9 in the right hand. Jazzers seldomly
play the root in the right hand anyway. They also often substitute the 5 for 13s.

Can you maybe post a link or two to one of your songs/compositions that uses extended chords???

I could send you a score if you like? What's your email (PM me)?

 

[jeffersonparish]

The voicings (sort of inversions) are hugely important, also the context in which the notes are added. Almost always the notes get spread over two or three different octaves, which reduces clashing. It's pretty difficult to play a 9th, 11th or 13th chord with only one hand.

9ths are the easiest to work with. To start with getting used to the sound, avoid putting the 9th at the very top of the chord,
Also try to avoid playing R - 9 -3 all in the same octave because it gets a bit dense.

11ths are harder to work with. Remember that although 9 chords always include the 7th as well (or major 7th for maj9 chords), 11 chords also include the 7th but do not include the 9th necessarily.

Major 11th chords are very very uncommon because of the clash between the major third and 11th as holistic songwriting says. If you drop the fifth from the chord (it's not particularly important for these big extended chords) you can have a maj7 #11, which I usually play as a polychord, for example Bm over a bass of C and E (C -E- B - D - F#) (R- 3-maj7-9-11). Major 7 #11 chords are a nice alternative to a normal major seventh or major 9th chord with a bit more unusual flavour.

13th chords are dominant chords. They have quite a bit of tension but not quite as much as the really weird 7 #9 chords. I usually play them as R - b7 - 3 - 13 but there's a good polychord voicing of R-3-b7 -3-13-R, e.g C -E-Bb-E-A-C, where EAC is a second inversion A minor triad played over a C7 chord.
There's also a major 13th chord with a major 7 instead of flat 7, used quite similarly to the maj7-#11 chord a lot of the time.

Major 7ths, major 9ths, major 13ths and major 7 #11s are all sort of 'root' chords. They don't resolve- they are resolved to. They are a starting and finishing point with a more interesting sound that just a normal major triad, if that makes sense.

Hope that you find some useful info in amongst that rambling

Scrapheaper,


Thank you so much for the explanation. As I said to HolisticSongwriting, I've been writing songs for years only by ear, so now, the musical vocabulary doesn't trigger the sound in my mind yet. I had to sit in front of a keyboard and play what you were talking about.


With that said, to illustrate what I'm dealing with, here is a sample of a song I wrote for a female artist – ST Sample.


These are ALL seventh chords now, and it's 2-5-1 over and over. There are three background singers, so I inverted all the chords to fit within one octave, approximately. ("Block chords" I believe is the correct term for this???)


Now, with the chords, I tried adding ninths, and it sounded decent. When I tried adding 11ths and 13ths, they sounded flat out like garbage.


So...do you have a song sample or even a snippet of something you wrote that demonstrates what you're talking about with the 11ths and 13ths??? I like the explanation, of course, but hearing it is always more effective.


Thanks!

 

[jeffersonparish]

Hey Jeffersonparish,

First of all: scrapheaper's comment is what I meant by someone else will know better than me Great comment!
The only thing I learned differently is that an 11th chord also always includes the 9th, but you never have to play
any options you don't want to play anyway.

To add to what sceapheader said, you can also try substituting the root for the 9 in the right hand. Jazzers seldomly
play the root in the right hand anyway. They also often substitute the 5 for 13s.



I could send you a score if you like? What's your email (PM me)?

I don't know what happened but I never got email notifications about these posts. I have to fix that.


PM'ing you now.

 

[scrapheaper]

Scrapheaper,


I inverted all the chords to fit within one octave, approximately. ("Block chords" I believe is the correct term for this???)

This is the normal way to play triads and 7ths and occasionally 9ths, but for 11ths and 13ths it's not possible to fit all those notes together in 1 octave without clashing.

I'll put together a little chord sequence if I have time today

 

[jeffersonparish]

This is the normal way to play triads and 7ths and occasionally 9ths, but for 11ths and 13ths it's not possible to fit all those notes together in 1 octave without clashing.

I'll put together a little chord sequence if I have time today

Ah, yes, I did not clarify. The block chords are only how they are right NOW – all sevenths.


When I added the 11ths and 13ths, I spread them all out in triads, taking up almost two octaves.


I used a keyboard instead of voices, as that would have stretched my voice and their voices out a little too much.


I tried pushing different notes even higher by an octave, but still the same result – 11ths and 13ths just didn't sound well.

 

[jeffersonparish]

Hey, have a listen to the stuff I play. I am all about chord progressions, extensions 9th, 11ths. The smooth progressions come from "borrowing" chords from other keys.
See an example below, and check me out if you want to download the MIDI files for learning, also some videos.

Hezekiah,

Nice progressions!! Brings to mind Floetry, Maxwell, and Erykah Badu.

Do you play any jazz? I started breaking some old jazz standards down to understand theory. It sounds like it might be right up your alley!

 

[scrapheaper]

Ah, yes, I did not clarify. The block chords are only how they are right NOW – all sevenths.


When I added the 11ths and 13ths, I spread them all out in triads, taking up almost two octaves.


I used a keyboard instead of voices, as that would have stretched my voice and their voices out a little too much.


I tried pushing different notes even higher by an octave, but still the same result – 11ths and 13ths just didn't sound well.

Holisticsongwritings post about avoid notes helped me understand why this doesn't work. (an avoid note is a b9 interval, and it sounds horrible. But if you swap the octaves of the notes, you get a major 7th instead, which isn't as bad for some reason)-
For example if you play a C 7-11 chord as C- E- G- Bb-F (exclding the ninth, not that it matters either way) there is a b9 interval between the E and the F one octave above. It's much better to play it C- F -G- Bb -E, where you now have a major 7th between the F and the E one octave above.
I hope that helps.

Bear in mind that at best these chords are still quite clashy. My favourite and least clashy C13 chord voicing is C-E-Bb-E-A-C (excluding the fifth). That's about the limit of how harmonious these chords can be.