Monitoring: To sub or not to sub?

**natureloop** · 03-02-2012

Hi there guys!
I would like to ask you whether it is advisable to complement a monitoring system with a subbass.

Currently:
>room untreated (6m x 3m x 3m) introduces modes at roughly multiples of 30Hz (modecalc).
>monintoring Genelec 1029A: 75-18000Hz

Would like to go lower:
> thus room treatment: absorption of multiples of 30Hz freqs
> new additional monitoring system: Yamaha HS80 (~55-20000) or Yamaha HS50+subHS10 (~35-20000)

So how low is it practical to start introducing freqs in the room (used for recording/mixing) ?

Thanks
Costas

**circab** · 03-02-2012

I honestly wish I could help on this.... I'll find the answer useful though haha

**Foggy** · 03-03-2012

Depends what you are trying to record and mix , does it have sub bass invoved ?

Genelecs are 70-18000 at - 2.5dB

Yamaha are 42Hz-20kHz at - 10dB !!!!!!

This is Yamaha making a little lie , it is normal to measure bandwidth at around -3db . so it's no wonder they "look" better if you don't find out the full spec info .
In fact Yamaha , go further , and do not publish this infop on their spces part of thei website !! (w*nkers!) .

Soo what does this mean for their sub ??
I wouldn't touch it with a sh!tty stick .

Save all your money and then post back and maybe we can find you a better all round monitoring system .
Note , subs are notoriously difficult to integrate to a studio monitoring system .

**natureloop** · 03-03-2012

Originally Posted by Foggy

Depends what you are trying to record and mix , does it have sub bass invoved ?

I am creating chill out music based on acoustic instruments (eg piano, double bass) as well as electronic sources (generators).
I would sparingly add drums & percussion.

Originally Posted by Foggy

Yamaha are 42Hz-20kHz at - 10dB !!!!!!

That would probably make it about 55-20000kHz -3dB?

Originally Posted by Foggy

Note , subs are notoriously difficult to integrate to a studio monitoring system .

That said, its better to have bigger sized monitors without sub?

Thanks Foggy
Costas

**Foggy** · 03-03-2012

Yes about 55 ish at 3db .

I don't do dance or anything with sub involved at all .
Would make sense to get the best pair of monitors you can without a sub though IMHO .

What depends on your cash !
The yam monitors and sub are just under £1000 in UK so that's a good bit of money .
You are still in the nearfield class though , and again room is very important .
Do keep in mind (I have no idea of this) if you are starting out , don't get carried away with spending !
Don't buy anything without hearing them first , or the view of someone who has good reputation and experience in audio at the very least (not really the way to go though).

On here there are a couple of guys I would be asking , ChrisCarter , BandCoach , MorningStar , WiessSound , Krushing , Moses (sorry if I missed someone) .

They would be my go to place for recommendations , but that sort of money , you are getting near some monitors that I would like to hear .

I PMed Wiess , he may post , I'll send some more PMs if I get chance over weekend .

**deRaNged 4 Phuk'dup** · 03-03-2012

I only use subs for Listening purposes. They're a must in my studio for when I wanna "bump" music. Always turned off when mixing though. Alot of times I have to even take a long break for my ears to re-adjust before mixing because I'm so used to bumping music loud as hell with a sub on, you do not mix in a loud bassy environment.

I'd suggest a $100-400 Sony, polk, JBL sub over a $3,000 sub for what I do, because, it's gonna be turned off while I'm mixing. And yeah, I've mixed in big rooms and still had to turn off their overpriced still just pumping low freq with no exceptional character subs. Keep ya big money, it's better spent on a workstation keyboard, top line mic, preamp or board...or even better...a pair of $3,000 Monitors!!!

It's a b**ch trying to find, cut, boost, and tame low freqs whjile hearing them thru a sub. It ruins perception. But it's great when your mix is done as a reference to how your sh*t will bump in a car or club.

Some may disagree, just my standpoint.

**Foggy** · 03-03-2012

Arrgg Deranged , sorry mate , I forgot to put you on the list

At £1000 for the yams with sub he is getting near a pair of Adam A77x (£1300 a pair) .
They go down the 38Hz , but I haven't heard them .
A link :
A77X - Description | ADAM Audio GmbH

**deRaNged 4 Phuk'dup** · 03-03-2012

^^^It's cool, I'm the 1st to admit I have the most unorthodox setups in the world, lol. I could've easily purposely been left off that list and respected it.

**WeissSound** · 03-03-2012

if your room is rectangular, you probably have uneven mode distribution. So 30hz might get certain bumps and dips, 60hz may bump or dip more, 90hz may bump and dip a little less. In my experience with rooms of that size, that 60hz standing wave will be the most dramatic. Well, 30hz might be very dramatic as well, but 30hz is barely audible anyway.

Subs are good because the speaker genuinely reproduces the waves at lower frequencies, whereas a lot of monitors extend the bass by way of a porting system in the back of the monitor. That increases the bass response, but produces the actual detail of it with less accuracy. The issue with subs is that you have to carefully set the crossover to maximize the response from both the sub and the speakers, and you have to very carefully place it to minimize the time lapse between the sub and speakers getting to your ears. Additionally, if you have big standing waves, you end up getting larger peaks and dips in the signal the more bass you crank into the room.

So I'd say - do everything you can to minimize your standing waves. Then get switchable monitors. NS-10s are great for super accurate midrange. Then just compliment that with something with a larger cone or speakers with coupled woofers so you can get accurate bass.

At home I use 8 inch cones, non-ported, and a whole lot of bass and midrange traps. Bass accuracy is very important to me as I primarily do dance, club, hip hop, pop music.