Code of ethics

M.C.Gray

M.C.Gray

New member
Do any of you feel it is ethical or unethical to use samples or loops in your songs? I am doing a group research project on the subject and would like to get feedback from some producers. Also any credible links will be appreciated if shared.
 
I'm a long way from "producer" status but I feel only if the producer obtains permission to sample through correct channels such as music clearance services is it ethical but I also don't feel it's unethical if one just samples without asking as one should be sure to list what samples they used in liner notes even though they are becoming non-existent.
 
I've been researching this topic around the net and on FP (the threads that I've recently read on this topic on FP below). I'm still not confident on this question on sampling and clearence: At what point does a sample go from being benign to being legally protected? Here's a quick senerio: I understand that if I sample an entire groove, fill, or even one bar of a Clyde Stubblefield drum part - I need to clear it. But if I sample one snare hit of his to use to build a sampled drum kit - its legal? Correct? If this is correct, then how about two snare hits? A snare roll? What's the bottom line on this?

Thanks!
https://www.futureproducers.com/for...ng/what-copyright-laws-about-sampling-442195/
https://www.futureproducers.com/for...mposing-sound-design/sampling-queries-461323/
https://www.futureproducers.com/for...eting/question-about-sample-clearance-467709/
https://www.futureproducers.com/for...er-what-do-i-need-know-about-sampling-483463/
https://www.futureproducers.com/for...eting/question-about-sample-clearance-467709/
 
I believe that sampling in itself is an art form and is completely valid. Its roots began in poor neigbourhoods where kids couldn't afford to learn instruments so they used what they had at their disposal to make music ie mom and pops record collection.

As for the legality of it, fair terms need to be negotiated between the original artist and the sampler's client and proper credits need to be given. Sometimes the original artist is given writers credits on the sampled song, for example Sting is credited on The Weeknd's Kiss Land.

There is a gray area as to when a sample needs to be cleared, this depends on the following of the artist and the projected impact of the song. It is generally the responsibility of the artist (not the producer) to clear the samples.

One thing that people misperceive is that a copyright can apply to a melody, hence although a song that has been pitched up slightly and sped up wont be taken down by youtube (because of their scanning algorithms) it is still infringing copyrights.
 
ViolaCello said:
I've been researching this topic around the net and on FP (the threads that I've recently read on this topic on FP below). I'm still not confident on this question on sampling and clearence: At what point does a sample go from being benign to being legally protected? Here's a quick senerio: I understand that if I sample an entire groove, fill, or even one bar of a Clyde Stubblefield drum part - I need to clear it. But if I sample one snare hit of his to use to build a sampled drum kit - its legal? Correct? If this is correct, then how about two snare hits? A snare roll? What's the bottom line on this?
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if the snare hit can be identified as coming from a particular source then it is illegal to use it. This, then, is the conundrum: how can I sample something that does not give away its source? answer you can't: you can apply transformative techniques to the sound to mask or otherwise hide key features, but in the end the guy that mic'd the original part or the guy who played the original part may hear it and say I know that sound, I help to craft that sound and then you are shot through the foot by your own cleverness. Attempting to disguise the sound is taken as an indication in law of knowingly evading your ethical and moral responsibilities as defined in the Berne Convention on Copyright
 
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I think there is no issue, but if I would ever have to use samples (I mean, another composer's samples), I would hardly call myself a "producer", I would barely be a beatmaker. Sampling was understandable back in the day, but now? To anyone who does it as a primary practice I would only say: lame. I would rather use some soundfonts or orchestral libraries before taking another person's ideas, mixing them up and putting some drumz to make "a hit". I know my chorus sounds will be less impressive than the one recorded of a 60's black singer, but they will be mine. You know, taking some strings from an old record... they will sound really good, I wan't to sound good by putting in the beat something i composed by myself.

About "ethics", I won't say it is "unethical", I just don't feel it's my creation if I didn't composed more than the bass line, I think it is ok always you are giving credits to the original creator of the sounds you are sampling.
 
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ToxicVallhalla said:
I think there is no issue, but if I would ever have to use samples (I mean, another composer's samples), I would hardly call myself a "producer", I would barely be a beatmaker. Sampling was understandable back in the day, but now? To anyone who does it as a primary practice I would only say: lame. I would rather use some soundfonts or orchestral libraries before taking another person's ideas, mixing them up and putting some drumz to make "a hit". I know my chorus sounds will be less impressive than the one recorded of a 60's black singer, but they will be mine. You know, taking some strings from an old record... they will sound really good, I wan't to sound good by putting in the beat something i composed by myself.

About "ethics", I won't say it is "unethical", I just don't feel it's my creation if I didn't composed more than the bass line, I think it is ok always you are giving credits to the original creator of the sounds you are sampling.
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So instead of taking one thing that someone did and use it, you'd rather take another thing someone else made and use it.

Makes perfect sense.
 
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Lol totally agree everything you make comes from a source and you gotta ask yourself did. Someone else take the time to make this sound or am I micing up
 
bandcoach said:
if the snare hit can be identified as coming from a particular source then it is illegal to use it. This, then, is the conundrum: how can I sample something that odes not give away its source? answer you can't: you can apply transformative techniques to the sound to mask or otherwise hide key features, but in the end the guy that mic'd the original part or the guy who played the original part may hear it and say I know that sound, I help to craft that sound and then you are shot through the foot by your own cleverness. Attempting to disguise the sound is taken as an indication in law of knowingly evading your ethical and moral responsibilities as defined in the Berne Convention on Copyright
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Thanks Bandcoach - that was the most definitive answer to this question I've had on this matter. I'm glad that I'm a composer and don't have to rely on sampling, however, if I did (or I wanted to get into that), I'm both impressed and astonished that an engineer would be able to recognize his/her snare drum mic technique from four decades ago after being run through modern processing. So if that's possible, then yes, the bottom line seems to be that anything one samples from another artist (no matter what the length, context, or processing) needs to be cleared if you're using it for anything other than a personal production portfolio.
 
Sorry bro, but no, you are using a really cheap strawman there, there is a difference between an utility/library (Miroslav Philarmonic) to create your own music or a drum sample library (and that's only for one-shots, I also think using a "pre-made" loop libraries (which you didn't made by yourself) is like sampling) AND another -very different- thing is taking a piece of creative who ANOTHER person did, taking a part of it and putting it on a repetitive loop. and then thinking you did something significant there.

If a billion-dollar corporation buys their competitors and turn themselves into their market's leaders, that aren't creative/innovative geniuses, they are just business people with some common sense. So yeah, for me, a sampled beat made by Timbaland is inferior to a beat made by a musician who started using FL Studio or Pro Tools a couple of months ago and does something by himself.

As I said before, it isn't bad (always you give credits to the original creator), but I won't pretend it has the same merit than using your own compositions. Cheers.

I also think sampling drums wouldn't fall under this category, since these are one shots and the level of "creativity" in a snare is ridiculously small compared to a pience of instrumental music, but, to each their own.
 
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I'll put and example here: one of the most used drum loops in the history of electronic music (not only), the Amen break (from the band "The Winstons") was, and is still used (mainly inside the drum and bass genre) without permission from any of the band's members and/or record company.

If you read a little about the story of dnb itself, you'll see that the whole genre was influenced by this 6 second loop. Now, am I being unethical for using it (or recreating it)? The drummer himself said in a interview that he tought about suing anyone who used his loop, but he dropped the idea. But he did said that people were un-creative for using his work against his will.

The point is: all forms of art are somewhat "copies" of something that was made before them, with variations here and there. It happens to music, to paintings, movies...
 
Ddream said:
The point is: all forms of art are somewhat "copies" of something that was made before them, with variations here and there. It happens to music, to paintings, movies...
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The real kicker here ^^^

I happen to think it's really cool when somebody obviously uses someone else's song but puts their own spin on it. Whether you reinterpret lyrics or completely change the mood even though it's the same basic backing.
 
Thank you all for the responses. Personally in my opinion if you are a sample based producer then by all means go for it especially if you are not selling the beats and just enjoy the act of creating. I saw an interview on Pensado's place where they had 40 (Drakes producer) on to talk about some of his latest tracks and he made a valid point about sampling that opened my eyes. If you are one of the people that perfer to use your own sounds and instrumentation and want to stick to that method fine, but sometimes using samples or loops are just another form of tools to help aid you and make a song. Hell sometimes you can start with a sample, build the song, and step back and realize the song sounds better without the sample. I am all for sampling especially on mix tapes which you are not selling to begin with. I think it hits an unethical code is when you try to pawn it off as your own work completely and try to sell it as such, but anything before that should not be frowned upon. Plenty of musicians make money off of becoming tribute bands why are they not frowned upon? I can name Weezer cover bands around Atlanta that people actually pay to go see, but when people start sampling in tracks that automatically makes them bad musicians? I do not get that part. I also am a firm believer sampling can help people be rediscovered. Like how James Brown and Arethea Franklin got rediscovered by playing parts in the Blues Brothers.

M.C.Gray
 
I don't think that "loop" could be considered anymore "plagiarism", its like the "dembow" in reggaeton, "Tiny's dembow" (wich is Tiny's own version of the old dancehall "pounder" dembow) is used on 9/10 reggaeton songs. That loop, as you said, inspired an entire sub-genre.

That just turned part of the entire genre. That's why I like to separate using something as a base in a very small way and using the music from another song, I think there are some creativity "ethics" implicit there, as someone else said up there, if it doesn't sound really close to the original sound, it is REALLY ok, and that would also fall in the category of a personal composition.

There is another important point here: are you a producer or a rapper/singer? I think sampling is always ok, but it is even more understandable when rappers/singers do it. I think this is a really gray area instead of "ok or not".
 
Ddream said:
The point is: all forms of art are somewhat "copies" of something that was made before them, with variations here and there. It happens to music, to paintings, movies...
Click to expand...


doesn't this touch the philosophy that there hasn't been original thought since Plato's time?

I am still going with the concept of, as long as you are not selling anything or a product its free promo for both parties and a partial rediscovery of one artist.
 
I recently learned to sample back in March.. i started off like listening to a classic song.. taking a part i like out of it.. looping it up . throwing drums on it.. and i'd have a banger.. just 3 nights ago i learned to take a loop of something i like like i did before.. but actually chop that 4 bar loop and make something completely different.. i made my best beat ever doing it.. but my thoughts on the subject is sampling is sampling.. no matter if you really chop down a loop or just loop some shit it up.. i won't throw shade your way personally
 
There are no ethics, only laws. IF you use uncleared samples and make money off of it it has nothing to do with ethics, you will be in legal trouble.
 
however, you need to understand the concept of ethics vs morality vs laws

Laws are enacted to ensure that people know what is unacceptable behaviour (and by inversion what is acceptable behaviour) - most people abide by the laws, but others take the view "it is only illegal if you get caught"

Ethics, on the other hand is a set of agreed principles by which one acts within a group of professionals or other group of same-task-oriented individuals. To break with the ethics of your group can lead to expulsion from the group or other sanctions being applied

Morality, on the gripping hand, is a set of personal principles by which to act. They may be shared by a larger group, such as a religion, but have no binding affect on individual or group other than what the individual expects of themselves.
 
It's funny because I had this discussion with my uncle a couple of days ago. He is a techno producer and plays, composes and constructs every pattern, sound, progression etcetera himself.

While me on the other hand i sample everything, i need a deep kick i search through all my records (or cop new ones) just to find that kick to complement the song. Same with hats, vocals, bass line. If i want a certain II - IV - V progression played on a mandolin i will have to search my ass off or chop a I - V - IV - II progression on a mandolin to my desired results. What i mean is that sampling to me is an art form. It takes a lot of time and energy and creativity to have an idea in your head and mold it with just using samples.

To me personally just taking one loop and leave it unaffected is a No go but that's my personal view. If just that loop tells the perfect story you want to convey and you add little bits of yourself to make the story come out more then I respect it.

Samples are bits of sound recorded from a pre-existing source. If there was no bird to record there was no sample. If there was no bongo band there was no apache break. In that context no sample use is original. But the story of the reconstructed or recomposed sample still can be original. Or the message or vibe it should convey. If i used the bongo break and made reggae from it (wich someone has probably already done but lets say it hasnt been done before) then the bongo break is unoriginal but the full reggae composition and the new vibe it brings hasn't been felt before in the combination with that break.

Epiloque; even if the source isn't original your idea or reconstruction can still convey never heard of stories or never felt moods.


idk if anyone is following what i'm trying to say but i hope it contributes to this thread haha.

El
 
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