Where am I losing the clarity in this mix?

crimsonhawk47

New member
I originally thought this mix was really muddy, and that's why I was cutting a lot of low mids out and still felt like it was muddy. But after showing it to a producer friend of mine, he actually thought it was kind of thin.

So exactly where is the clarity getting lost? I thought I was hearing mud, but now I'm not sure what I'm hearing. View attachment 01 Everythings Ok FOR REAL THIS T.mp3
 
when you cut low mids out you tend to lose some overall punchiness. sounds like some improper use of compression. everything kind of sounds muffled. especially the kick and snare.
 
Curious. If I went back I think I'd find I used no compression. Maybe one compressor on the bass, and that would probably be it.

This isn't the first time I've heard that my mix sounds like it's been overly compressed when I haven't used that much compression, so we should also pursue why that is.

Edit: Of course I've only heard it from one other guy.
 
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positives

nice to actually get a mix with -10dbfs as the loudest point in the track and average around -20dbfs

some of your sounds are fine because you have panned them out the mud in the middle - not that I am not suggesting that the middle is actually muddy just crowded

negatives

too many sounds are panned centrally, leading to congestion and sense of a lack of space in the mix overall
- the piano could go further into the left channel
- spread all of your percussion across the stereo field

request

another version with no eq at all

another version with no eq and no fx

then I can offer some insights as to what needs fixing beyond simple panning/level balancing
 
I can definitely send those tomorrow.

With regards to percussion, wouldn't I want to leave a kick and snare in the middle? Surely there's something I can do that can keep those elements in the middle while still uncluttering things?
 
a lot of panning theory has been developed to accommodate mono systems in venues and mono playback systems in general. this does not mean that the elements need to be panned in the centre: simply that to have maximum impact in a mono downmix, they should be centred.

when discussing percussion, to me, percussion is the entire family of instruments that are hit, brushed, rubbed, scraped, to make a sound.

kick and snare are part of a subset known as drum kit or drums

when I talk percussion I ordinarily omit drum kit from that naming (sort of an exclusiveness applied to percussion vs drum kit)

however, in this case I mean everything is up for being moved - this does not mean that you sever the connection between the elements of the kit, simply shift their image to one side or the other - quite common in jazz bands to have the drummer to the left or right of the rest of the musicians as much to provide separation as anything else. So do a group mix and then pan the group left or right to achieve the desired placement. if you are concerned about losing the link with the bass then pan it to the central position of the new location as well
 
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I mean more as in, what if I happen to personally think a kick and snare noticeably panned to the left or right sounds wonky, and I've to a lot of songs that had clarity and still had those elements center?

I know I can only get so much out of this until I post the other versions.
 
do what you think is going to work; I am just offering alternative views to get you thinking outside of the box
 
As long as we're on the subject of panning, is reverb your way of keeping panned sounds from sounding unnatural in the context of the mix?
 
I don't know why, but I guess I changed the version that I uploaded in the OP. So I made a new version where I panned the piano a bit and ridiculously slight panning on the kick and snare.

I also put the source of the hard synth to the left but the verb is the main sound.

I took the eq off of the verbs as well in the no eq and no eq fx version.

On the no fx version I took guitar rig off the synth. You'll know what I mean when you hear it.

View attachment Everythings Ok Bandcoach Suggestions.mp3
View attachment Everythings Ok No Eq.mp3
View attachment Everythings Ok No Eq Or FX.mp3
 
Can I ask what is it in the original you feel is missing? I understand you thought the mix was muddy, but was there anything in particular that wasn't cutting through the way you'd intended?
 
Not in particular. It just feels like a big mess tonally

Edit: and I'm not sure if it's mud but it's something.
 
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Not in particular. It just feels like a big mess tonally

Edit: and I'm not sure if it's mud but it's something.

Well, I think if you cut the traditional mud frequencies and that didn't do it, the problem is something else as you suggest. To me it doesn't sound like a mess really, but perhaps there are some things to consider, for example:

Have you rolled off the low frequencies of your cymbals and crashes? What about the other high frequency instruments? What happens to the mix if you roll them off at a slightly higher point? The kick doesn't seem to cut through sufficiently for me, I'd look at putting in a compressed/eqed version in, possibly alongside what you have now. The kick for me plays an important role in the track, so the fact that it lacks the impact it could have possibly accounts for the 'overcompressed' flat sensation another poster got.

Have you 'cut a hole' (EQed) for the dominant kick frequency in the bass? How about adding a bit of 5 KHz to the kick to boost the attack?

If it were my track I'd change the snare sound. At the moment it seems to take up a lot of space in the mix - I'd consider decreasing the decay and putting a low pass filter (or removing a good deal of the high frequency content). I had a play around with one of the versions you uploaded. The intention being not really to 'fix' what you have, rather to provoke a response to something in particular you might decide stands out as wrong.

Having said all that though, assuming you have already low or high passed the various instruments appropriately to improve clarity, I'd say if you're happy with the composition, the track is almost at the stage where you should probably just send it off for mastering imho, as I said it really doesn't sound a mess here at all.
 

Attachments

  • EvrythngsOkNEq_rev1.mp3
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Well, I think if you cut the traditional mud frequencies and that didn't do it, the problem is something else as you suggest. To me it doesn't sound like a mess really, but perhaps there are some things to consider, for example:

Have you rolled off the low frequencies of your cymbals and crashes? What about the other high frequency instruments? What happens to the mix if you roll them off at a slightly higher point? The kick doesn't seem to cut through sufficiently for me, I'd look at putting in a compressed/eqed version in, possibly alongside what you have now. The kick for me plays an important role in the track, so the fact that it lacks the impact it could have possibly accounts for the 'overcompressed' flat sensation another poster got.

Have you 'cut a hole' (EQed) for the dominant kick frequency in the bass? How about adding a bit of 5 KHz to the kick to boost the attack?

If it were my track I'd change the snare sound. At the moment it seems to take up a lot of space in the mix - I'd consider decreasing the decay and putting a low pass filter (or removing a good deal of the high frequency content). I had a play around with one of the versions you uploaded. The intention being not really to 'fix' what you have, rather to provoke a response to something in particular you might decide stands out as wrong.

Having said all that though, assuming you have already low or high passed the various instruments appropriately to improve clarity, I'd say if you're happy with the composition, the track is almost at the stage where you should probably just send it off for mastering imho, as I said it really doesn't sound a mess here at all.

I never considered that it sounds compressed when the kick just isn't cutting through. That's a good point.

I rolled off a 6db pole at about 100 hz for a lot of them. I should probably mention that I didn't necessarily have low mids cut, I just had them getting rolled off because the pole was high enough. I originally had cuts, but I decided it sounded weird.

One thing I forgot to do was add side chain compression to the bass on either versions. I had it before, but I did a complete remake and forgot to put it in (and it sounds like it could use it)

I haven't cut a hole in the bass because I just don't like to do that with the bass.

I get the snare decay. I know it's a lot of reverb, I put it on there on purpose. I wanted people to notice the verb as part of the sound. I made it mono so it would be less crazy, but I can try turning it down.

I'll listen to your version in a bit.

I'm not sure what it is I'm hearing, but it just sounds like I don't even have that many sounds but it's coming through in a bad way. Kick, Snare, Piano, Synth through guitar rig, Cymbal, another synth, strings, claps.

Everything is technically mono. The piano, strings, and guitar rig synth are just going through reverbs, and the other synth has a haas delay.
 
I have to say I think my version sounds better (though that's understandable since you didn't have the stems). But they both sound messy to me.
 
I don't know why, but I guess I changed the version that I uploaded in the OP. So I made a new version where I panned the piano a bit and ridiculously slight panning on the kick and snare.

I also put the source of the hard synth to the left but the verb is the main sound.

I took the eq off of the verbs as well in the no eq and no eq fx version.

On the no fx version I took guitar rig off the synth. You'll know what I mean when you hear it.

so I did something crazy and played all 4 together and got a great sound with exception of the hi tom/bongo bouncing all over the place and being too resonant and too loud

the bc version is just about right to my ears but then it would be, so to speak

without a wav version of the stereo mix or the stems I would not dare hazard an eq'ing of this track

the piano is a bit woody to my ears in most of these and could probably be eq'd to bring out the higher tones and drop some of the bottom end out - it could also do with going further to the left

pan the bass to the mirror position of teh piano (i.e. on the right side) simply so that I can hear it for now
 
View attachment Everythings Ok Bandcoach and Afterswish.mp3

Lowered snare verb a bit, moved bass and kick right a bit

Dip in low mids and in 3k range for piano, plus moved it more to the left.

Edit: Wait, as in the tracks sounded good when you played them all at once? I'm not sure how that's possible or fits into this haha.

Also, I can definitely see what you mean with the clearing as I pan. I'm just trying to make things seem cohesive. Like I panned the strings hard right, but I worry that they don't sound cohesive. And to make them sound cohesive I have to use more reverb than I'd like.
 
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so very nearly happy

- make the reverb on the piano a send (pre-fader, i.e. even if the channel fader on the piano is down you still hear the reverbed version) rather than an insert (if it isn't already) then eq the reverb so that there is a high-pass at 150Hz

- use the return and the piano channel to get the right balance of wash vs direct sound probably a little less reverb than there is now but adjust the main piano channel so that it is only just heard as adding definition to the track overall
 
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I'm surprised you roll off your high frequency sounds so low, and with such a gentle slope. I tend to cut till the sounds are perhaps a bit thin individually, but to where you can't really notice in the mix. You can always automate the filter/eq away if or when they are heard on their own. If mud (around 250Hz?) was the problem, I think you may have found one potential source.

I thought your version sounded better too by the way - I put a little bit of compression and some gentle eq in the hopes that the problem would jump out, although as I said earlier the original version didn't sound too bad to me in the first place!
 
This is a bit outside my genre, so I'm not sure exactly what advice to offer. And this is just opinion for sure.

(Talking about the first link). I really enjoyed listening to this. But I do think the track as a whole sounded a bit on the flatter side. It seems like none of your synths are "cutting through" the mix and none of them has dominance. Maybe it's just all the reverb that's blending things a bit. Maybe you can try pulling the reverb on some of the instrments back a bit. (Particularly the crash).

With that said, if that's most of just an ambient effect you're going for, I understand.
 
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