Is using REAL instruments in your production the G.O.A.T.?

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98bullz said:
OP checkin' in here. I can confirm, good thread is good.

A couple of things though. LOL, I've been reading through this thread. So many misinformed non-thread reading/non-musicians posting...What is this.. I don't even..*sigh* I can only shake my head. There are so many posts I want to respond to (which I will do later.) But for now I just need to say a few things.

1) When did I ever say that guitar/bass guitar are the same thing? I said I play guitar (bass, electric, acoustic) Bass guitar is still a guitar, so I don't know why everyone is giving me grief for it. I know bass guitar isn't the same as acoustic guitar, and that electric guitar holds some crucial difference from acoustic guitar.

2) Can anybody quote where I've said that "The piano isn't an instrument"? Because I've never said that, you people gotta stop making up things just to strengthening your WEAK points. I know it will be hard, since your arguments are lame and flimsy, but if you have to contort my words, SCROUNGING for a rebuttal then that should tell you something about the validity of my OP.

3) I STRONLGY encourage people who are posting in this thread to read my sentiments from page 1-3, before posting, as there are no loop holes in my logic, anyone with an IQ greater than a potato can understand that REAL sound is always greater than fake computer generated sounds.

With that said, I will try to respond to some of the other posts.
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98bullz said:
In a generation like OURS, where MOST of the music is digital, made by digital/VST sounds, wouldn't you agree that producing using primarily REAL INSTRUMENTS is the GREATEST thing of all time?

1, stand out from the competition cuz you use real instruments

4, can actually call yourself a musician because you can ACTUALLY play musical instruments
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Sounds like you don't like midi to me. Maybe what you meant was people that hit random keys on midi.

When you break down your sentiments, all you are really saying is "God doesn't pop music suck?" It has nothing to do with VST availability. It has to do with the music industry enabling this shit for years. I do agree people should learn instruments, but that has nothing to do with the state of music right now.

So you're right, pop music sucks, but let's get down to the first question you asked.

"Is using REAL instruments in your production the G.O.A.T.?"

Are there bands that suck? Yes? Well then I guess not.
 
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wildinout8 said:
This confuses me beyond belief. I've been in bands for over 20 years, have discussed music with countless musicians growing up and in college, performed shows, debated with professionals, etc.

The fact of the matter is - if you're creating beats, whatever the genre - those that can actually play an instrument are taken seriously by the music community than those who only use VST's - VST only musicians don't last. I know that's a hard pill to swallow for many people, but it is what it is.

...and don't even get me started on the DJ Mustard-hit talk - that's like saying Milli Vanilli and Britney Spears and Ashley Simpson are taken seriously for their voices because they have "hits".
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This ^

As said in one of my earlier posts. Being able to play an instrument PROVES that you can sit down and learn something. It PROVES that you have the discipline to take something seriously, and be good at it. There is no skill in googling piano chords, slapping on a VST instrument, looping it, and adding a high hat, snare, and drum kicks. I've said it twice, I'll say it once more. Now-a-days producers want to PRODUCE, before they learn how to make music. They want to do calculus before they know addition and subtraction. I read something in another thread that, "If you're not serious enough to buy your beats tracked out, so it can be mastered properly, then don't make music". Well the same sentiments hold here. If you don't have enough discipline to sit down, and learn an instrument, then don't bother becoming or calling yourself a producer. UNLESS you want to make remedial ABC. 123 beats, then go ahead, but if you actually care about making music sonically pleasing to mature ear drums then LEARN AN INSTRUMENT.
 
crimsonhawk47 said:
Sounds like you don't like midi to me. Maybe what you meant was people that hit random keys on midi.

When you break down your sentiments, all you are really saying is "God doesn't pop music suck?" It has nothing to do with VST availability. It has to do with the music industry enabling this shit for years. I do agree people should learn instruments, but that has nothing to do with the state of music right now.

So you're right, pop music sucks, but let's get down to the first question you asked.

"Is using REAL instruments in your production the G.O.A.T.?"

Are there bands that suck? Yes? Well then I guess not.
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I said that? and.. I am?... Whoa.. R u a wzrd mate? Don't tell me you can tell what I ate for breakfast as well!!? (sarcasm).


I never said that, I actually enjoy pop music.

Using real instruments ARE G.O.A.T. This thread started off as one thing, but evolved into something else, either way, I agree with my original sentiments that natural tones are better than fake ones, as well as the sentiments that you should learn how to play an instrument before they sell you any DAW software.

In regards to your question, why yes, there are PLENTY of bands that suck, but at least they're serious enough to learn how to play their damn instrument as opposed to recording three chords, and looping it. Like I said in another post, there is NO quantizing when you're playing live.
 
98bullz said:
I said that? and.. I am?... Whoa.. R u a wzrd mate? Don't tell me you can tell what I ate for breakfast as well!!? (sarcasm).


I never said that, I actually enjoy pop music.

Using real instruments ARE G.O.A.T. This thread started off as one thing, but evolved into something else, either way, I agree with my original sentiments that natural tones are better than fake ones, as well as the sentiments that you should learn how to play an instrument before they sell you any DAW software.

In regards to your question, why yes, there are PLENTY of bands that suck, but at least they're serious enough to learn how to play their damn instrument as opposed to recording three chords, and looping it. Like I said in another post, there is NO quantizing when you're playing live.
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Oh good. So we've narrowed this down.

You like pop music and want people to learn real instruments because you like the natural tones of real instruments.

You should learn how to play a real instrument before even touching a DAW (which, again, I don't know what you think a piano is but we'll move past that).

1) "Recording three chords and looping it." Don't worry, plenty of bands do that.

2) "there is NO quantizing when you're playing live." There is time correction when playing live into a DAW. That's just a side note really, because I think it's more important to learn how to play piano well enough that you don't need to quantize anything so it sounds more natural.

3) "Being able to play an instrument PROVES that you can sit down and learn something." Maybe they don't want to prove anything in that regard. A producer can be somebody that gets other people together to play for them because they know arrangement well enough. A producer wears many hats but doesn't have to wear all of them. Even DJ Khaled (god bless his soul) has stuck around for a long ass time, well sought out by rappers, and he doesn't do anything really.

4) (The comment about googling piano chords). It really sounds like you're giving pop music a free pass here. What makes you think people are googling chords? I know that most pop producers are very keen on a few chords, but what makes you think these other people don't just know music theory?

5) "Poverty" Seriously?
 
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I think an important distinction to make though is that natural sounds are better than fake natural sounds, yes. But acoustic sounds are not inherently better than digital sounds.

You're never going to make a VST that can emulate a beautifully expressive performance from a classical violinist who has spent their life mastering the subtle dynamics and variations that make a piece of music exceptional. There are simply too many variables (and subjective playing styles) for software to emulate. You can get pretty close, probably close enough that the average listener couldn't tell the difference (Listen to Embertone's demos of the Blakus cello.) but it's still not even close to the real thing.

However, no acoustic instrument is ever going to be able to create the vast variety of new and strange sounds that a synthesizer can, and personally I think those sounds have been responsible for some of the most creative innovations in music in the last couple decades, just like electric guitars were before that. If you get away from testosterone-laden bro trap beats and actually explore how immensely diverse electronic beats can be, you'll be surprised at how unique and musically thoughtful they can be (listen to Sanctuary by Koan Sound, or the Shrines album by Purity Rings).

So, in my opinion, if the track you're working on calls for acoustic sounds, a VST is not going to sound as good as a real instrument. However that doesn't automatically mean that a track with recorded acoustic sounds is automatically better than an all-digital track. A good song is about writing and composition, and good engineering will highlight a good composition and make it great, but good engineering won't save a bad composition (at least not to musicians).
 
Jon Neimeister said:
I think an important distinction to make though is that natural sounds are better than fake natural sounds, yes. But acoustic sounds are not inherently better than digital sounds.

You're never going to make a VST that can emulate a beautifully expressive performance from a classical violinist who has spent their life mastering the subtle dynamics and variations that make a piece of music exceptional. There are simply too many variables (and subjective playing styles) for software to emulate. You can get pretty close, probably close enough that the average listener couldn't tell the difference (Listen to Embertone's demos of the Blakus cello.) but it's still not even close to the real thing.

However, no acoustic instrument is ever going to be able to create the vast variety of new and strange sounds that a synthesizer can, and personally I think those sounds have been responsible for some of the most creative innovations in music in the last couple decades, just like electric guitars were before that. If you get away from testosterone-laden bro trap beats and actually explore how immensely diverse electronic beats can be, you'll be surprised at how unique and musically thoughtful they can be (listen to Sanctuary by Koan Sound, or the Shrines album by Purity Rings).

So, in my opinion, if the track you're working on calls for acoustic sounds, a VST is not going to sound as good as a real instrument. However that doesn't automatically mean that a track with recorded acoustic sounds is automatically better than an all-digital track. A good song is about writing and composition, and good engineering will highlight a good composition and make it great, but good engineering won't save a bad composition (at least not to musicians).
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I think I like that answer

I'm out.
 
...selan se ya.Wtf.
Quantize is optional.
You can record real instruments into programs.
You can learn how to play instruments with midi instruments because they look exactly like them.
And vsts like kontakt and garritan are just samples of actual instruments.
Synthesizers are very deep tools that let you create almost every sound depending on knowledge and type of synth you use.
Learning scales is great.Learning chords is great.

I fail to understand you and your reasoning.Automation, looping, arranging things how you want, adding in vsts and scales and chords with some drums and stuff, why should dudes stop doing this?Not sure about you but that is hella fun :/
 
crimsonhawk47 said:
Oh good. So we've narrowed this down.

You like pop music and want people to learn real instruments because you like the natural tones of real instruments.

You should learn how to play a real instrument before even touching a DAW (which, again, I don't know what you think a piano is but we'll move past that).

1) "Recording three chords and looping it." Don't worry, plenty of bands do that.

2) "there is NO quantizing when you're playing live." There is time correction when playing live into a DAW. That's just a side note really, because I think it's more important to learn how to play piano well enough that you don't need to quantize anything so it sounds more natural.

3) "Being able to play an instrument PROVES that you can sit down and learn something." Maybe they don't want to prove anything in that regard. A producer can be somebody that gets other people together to play for them because they know arrangement well enough. A producer wears many hats but doesn't have to wear all of them. Even DJ Khaled (god bless his soul) has stuck around for a long ass time, well sought out by rappers, and he doesn't do anything really.

4) (The comment about googling piano chords). It really sounds like you're giving pop music a free pass here. What makes you think people are googling chords? I know that most pop producers are very keen on a few chords, but what makes you think these other people don't just know music theory?

5) "Poverty" Seriously?
Click to expand...


1) How many? And sure, as stated in one of my earlier comments, yes, it's OKAY to do simple stuff SOMETIMES, but if your whole catalog of music consists on primarily basic stuff, then please don't call yourself a producer.

2)Yet another person reading what I said, and twisting it's meaning to what they want to hear. I'm talking about playing LIVE, as in real life, not live into a DAW. If you have experience playing live, with the pressure, and the time it takes to practice, composing using a DAW then becomes as simple as a children's nursery rhyme.

3) It doesn't matter if you WANT to prove anything or not, face is you're gunna have to. Just like in the streets, a high end corporate position, music, or anything else in life. You gotta earn your stripes for respect, it don't take rocket science to loop. Also that's not the only thing I said in that sequence, strong cherry picking, I also said it PROVES that you have the discipline to sit down and be good, further supporting my premise that music has now become a joke, rather than an ART.

4) Once again, I never said anything about pop.. YOU'RE the one who brough up pop. "all you are really saying is "God doesn't pop music suck?", " So you're right, pop music sucks" "," So you're right, pop music sucks", "(The comment about googling piano chords). It really sound like you're giving pop muisc a free pass here. What makes you think people are googling chords?"

Please stop putting words into my mouth and focus on what I'm ACTUALLY saying.
 
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Jon Neimeister said:
I think an important distinction to make though is that natural sounds are better than fake natural sounds, yes. But acoustic sounds are not inherently better than digital sounds.

You're never going to make a VST that can emulate a beautifully expressive performance from a classical violinist who has spent their life mastering the subtle dynamics and variations that make a piece of music exceptional. There are simply too many variables (and subjective playing styles) for software to emulate. You can get pretty close, probably close enough that the average listener couldn't tell the difference (Listen to Embertone's demos of the Blakus cello.) but it's still not even close to the real thing.

However, no acoustic instrument is ever going to be able to create the vast variety of new and strange sounds that a synthesizer can, and personally I think those sounds have been responsible for some of the most creative innovations in music in the last couple decades, just like electric guitars were before that. If you get away from testosterone-laden bro trap beats and actually explore how immensely diverse electronic beats can be, you'll be surprised at how unique and musically thoughtful they can be (listen to Sanctuary by Koan Sound, or the Shrines album by Purity Rings).

So, in my opinion, if the track you're working on calls for acoustic sounds, a VST is not going to sound as good as a real instrument. However that doesn't automatically mean that a track with recorded acoustic sounds is automatically better than an all-digital track. A good song is about writing and composition, and good engineering will highlight a good composition and make it great, but good engineering won't save a bad composition (at least not to musicians).
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B..b..but... I already said that.

98bullz said:
I think you guys are misinterpreting the OP. I'm not saying that you can't use VST's, but I'm saying that more producers should focus their energies on using REAL instruments, as opposed to the same boring synths, and drum kicks. Now a days, it doesn't take much to be a music producer, all you need is a synth, MPC/Drum machine, and a couple VST's and you're set, which is why I'm so obviously pissed.

It's funny that you mention DJ Mustard, because he IS a loser, the beats he makes can be made by a third grader. His music is SO simple, and doesn't require much skill or talent, DJ Mustard gets by off of using "hot" artist, and by "hot" I mean GARBAGE rappers who currently have a big hype.

You're right! "VSTs CAN provide 10 x more possibilities than using real instruments?", but you should use VST's in conjunction with real instruments. It's gotten to the point where you have 15 year old kids making a living off of music because their mummy and datty, bought them a drum machine, after they've cracked a demo version of FL studio that they found online.. Is THIS where you want music to go to?

Being able to play an instrument proves that you have the discipline and dedication to sit down and be GOOD at something, there's no quantizing when you're playing live guitar, nor is there anyway to cheat learning musical theory. If more producers had the balls to master an instrument or two, the dynamic of todays music would change GREATLY. But they'd rather not, they'd rather play three chords and loop it, then add a heavy ass bass, and call it a "hit".. lol. This is why almost ALL of the songs on the radio, and "promotional" mixtapes, sound the same.

Producers are equally to blame for killing music, and part of this is because they're not experienced in music, they can't play an instrument. Inb4 some schmo calls me a "troll" because they make the same watered down remedial beats that I just mentioned above.
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Future Producers? Y U No Read?
 
wildinout8 said:
Not sure what to gain from this in terms of why those legends haven't used VST's instead of their own classic instruments in the past 20 years - can you elaborate?



No idea where the OP got the idea the piano isn't an instrument and def don't agree with that at all.

But, let me ask you these questions:

1) Can you learn box theory of guitar soloing on a guitar VST played with a MIDI keyboard/clicking a mouse or are you replicating what you hear classically trained musicians do?

2) Can you learn the various sounds of a jazz/rock drum setup, why they are used in their respective forums in accordance with acoustics, audience distance or are you replicating what you hear classically trained musicians do?

3) Can you learn the proper length of a bend on an electric/acoustic/bass guitar or are you replicating what you hear classically trained musicians do?

4) Can you learn anything regarding harmonics on a guitar or why they even exist?

5) Can you learn any major, minor, harmonic, pentatonic scales on a guitar and their mathematical sequence or are you replicating what you hear classically trained musicians do?

6) Can you learn the nuances of slapping/sliding a bass guitar or are you replicating what you hear classically trained musicians do?

Please - can someone answer these questions objectively...I would love for someone to change my view point as to how you can learn WHY a classical instrument is set up the way it is and how a VST can TEACH you that. Because, as it stands, you are LIMITED in the amount you can learn from a VST that replicates the REAL thing.

Yes, VST's sound amazing and the person using them can create some nice Sounds out of them...but that has less to do with the user of the VST and more to do with the ARTISTS WHO SAMPLED THE REAL INSTRUMENT to create those sounds.



This is from the OP and each of my posts have stuck to his original point and I agree with much that he says. There is no way in the world I, and the numerous people PM'ing me to continue to Preach, will ever use a VST when we can just play and record it live.
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This ^

wildinout8 said:
Please quote Who and Where this is stated. If you plan on quoting me, then that's not what I said at all. But, playing a guitar patch on a keyboard is nowhere near the same thing as playing an actual guitar. [end of reply towards crimsonhawk so you don't think I'm roasting you]

Let me ask you all this:

Does Eric Clapton use a VST when he is playing guitar on his album?
Does Billy Joel use a VST when he is playing piano on his album?
Does Larry Graham use a VST when he is playing bass on his album?
Does Lars Ulrich use a VST when he is playing drums on his album?
Do artists ever use an VST when they have a musician in the room who can play the real thing??

Why not????

I do not agree with the idea of bashing those who don't use classical instruments in their music...do you. I also use a ton of synths in my music and it's taken my ideas to the next level - I actually use more synths than I do live instrumentation.

But, if you somehow think you're getting the same education or understanding of music by using a virtual instrument (key word is VIRTUAL) by playing it on a MIDI keyboard, then you also believe that you're getting the same education or understanding of women by getting a blow up doll or watching Redtube.

If you haven't gotten any in years and this post offends you, then don't even bother responding to me because this is all meant in good fun and should spark a healthy debate.
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And SO MUCH THIS ^^
 
98bullz said:
Future Producers? Y U No Read?
Click to expand...

Because I don't have 4 hours to read through 9 pages of 12 paragraphs per post, so I was commenting on the OP. :P

I'm sure both sides of the debate have been well represented in this thread, I'm trying to say that it shouldn't be an argument in the first place. All of us should be in search of better sounding music, and that happens when a marriage of new technology and old principles happen. This shouldn't be a war or a this vs. that, it should be a, "How can I get the best possible sound for the best possible song?"

Abandoning hundreds of years of musical theory and ignoring the vast expressive potential of acoustic instruments is foolish.
Ignoring the progression of technology and pretending like acoustic instruments are the only source of "real" music is also foolish.
Pretending like you can make music without learning music theory is also foolish, and I would agree that learning something like piano or guitar is one of the best ways to learn music theory.

I'm not saying anyone in this thread explicitly stated the above, I'm just stating it as a fact. Great guitarists use guitars, great synthesists use synthesizers, both are capable of making great music and there shouldn't be a war between the two.
 
Jon Neimeister said:
Because I don't have 4 hours to read through 9 pages of 12 paragraphs per post, so I was commenting on the OP. :P

I'm sure both sides of the debate have been well represented in this thread, I'm trying to say that it shouldn't be an argument in the first place. All of us should be in search of better sounding music, and that happens when a marriage of new technology and old principles happen. This shouldn't be a war or a this vs. that, it should be a, "How can I get the best possible sound for the best possible song?"

Abandoning hundreds of years of musical theory and ignoring the vast expressive potential of acoustic instruments is foolish.
Ignoring the progression of technology and pretending like acoustic instruments are the only source of "real" music is also foolish.
Pretending like you can make music without learning music theory is also foolish, and I would agree that learning something like piano or guitar is one of the best ways to learn music theory.

I'm not saying anyone in this thread explicitly stated the above, I'm just stating it as a fact. Great guitarists use guitars, great synthesists use synthesizers, both are capable of making great music and there shouldn't be a war between the two.
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THIS ^

Even though I've pretty much already said this in previous posts, I'm just gunna say. "THIS ^", since everybody wants to attack me, but nobody wants to read the things I've actually wrote. This statement and your other pretty much sums up most of what I've said. Good Job Dete Mate.
 
OP: Why do you even care?
The only thing that matters is results.
If an experienced synthesist and an excellent guitarist each independently write their own masterpieces, what's the rub?
You just sound bitter to me. Perhaps you learned a "real instrument" that isn't in demand and doesn't translate well to popular electronic music. Maybe electronic music just isn't your thing. I'm not exactly sure.
Whatever your motivation for posting this thread, your conclusions stand on very shaky ground.

-Ki
Salem Beats
 
Salem Beats said:
OP: Why do you even care?
The only thing that matters is results.
If an experienced synthesist and an excellent guitarist each independently write their own masterpieces, what's the rub?
You just sound bitter to me. Perhaps you learned a "real instrument" that isn't in demand and doesn't translate well to popular electronic music. Maybe electronic music just isn't your thing. I'm not exactly sure.
Whatever your motivation for posting this thread, your conclusions stand on very shaky ground.

-Ki
Salem Beats
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Where did I say that I make EDM?
 
98bullz said:
Where did I say that I make EDM?
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Read the sentence carefully.

I'm implying that electronic music is popular,
and that you might have learned an instrument that doesn't really translate directly to popular music (i.e., Ukelele, Clarinet, or Violin).

Finally, I said "electronic music", as in "music made electronically". I never said EDM. You quoted it yourself, so it should be easy for you to find and re-read it.


-Ki
Salem Beats (+Reviews)
gpWmqu
 
Salem Beats said:
Read the sentence carefully.

I'm implying that electronic music is popular,
and that you might have learned an instrument that doesn't really translate directly to popular music (i.e., Ukelele, Clarinet, or Violin).

Finally, I said "electronic music", as in "music made electronically". I never said EDM. You quoted it yourself, so it should be easy for you to find and re-read it.


-Ki
Salem Beats (+Reviews)
gpWmqu
Click to expand...


Okay.. What does the popularity of "electronic muisc" have to do with my OP and following points? Knowing how to play an instrument ensures that you make GOOD music. You're trying to curve this thread into a different direction. Hell, you probably can't play a G chord of a guitar, hence being one of the weak producers I'm talking about. If you don't have a constructive argument conducive to my OP and following points, then please don't post. Take care.
 
98bullz said:
Okay.. What does the popularity of "electronic muisc" have to do with my OP and following points? Knowing how to play an instrument ensures that you make GOOD music. You're trying to curve this thread into a different direction. Hell, you probably can't play a G chord of a guitar, hence being one of the weak producers I'm talking about. If you don't have a constructive argument conducive to my OP and following points, then please don't post. Take care.
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It's relevant because you have an irrational disgust with the way modern popular music is created.

I'd venture to guess that you learned an instrument that nobody cares to hear,
and now you're trying to rationalize your "wasted" time by stepping up on a pedestal and putting down the methods others use to make music.

For what it's worth, I know how to play a "G Major" chord on a guitar. It doesn't really matter, though, because that's hardly a qualification.
My dad had me started on guitar and music theory way back around age 9 or so; he had dreams of teaching me to become a virtuoso.
The information sticks with me, but I don't find myself needing to access it much.

To summarize, my contribution to this thread is this:
Your entire premise stated in the OP is devoid of any value to any of us - It's just a rant from someone who feels slighted.
That's not to say that there's anything wrong with meaningless complaining (maybe it's cathartic for you), but it's important to recognize it for what it is.


-Ki
Salem Beats (+Reviews)
gpWmqu
 
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Salem Beats said:
It's relevant because you have an irrational disgust with the way modern popular music is created.

I'd venture to guess that you learned an instrument that nobody cares to hear,
and now you're trying to rationalize your "wasted" time by stepping up on a pedestal and putting down the methods others use to make music.

For what it's worth, I know how to play a "G Major" chord on a guitar. It doesn't really matter, though, because that's hardly a qualification.
My dad had me started on guitar and music theory way back around age 9 or so; he had dreams of teaching me to become a virtuoso.
The information sticks with me, but I don't find myself needing to access it much.

To summarize, my contribution to this thread is this:
Your entire premise stated in the OP is devoid of any value to any of us - It's just a rant from someone who feels slighted.
That's not to say that there's anything wrong with meaningless complaining (maybe it's cathartic for you), but it's important to recognize it for what it is.


-Ki
Salem Beats (+Reviews)
gpWmqu
Click to expand...

Why guess when you can be certain ? I've already disclosed which instruments I know how to play on the first two pages of this thread. You clearly didn't read anything and decided to attack me based off of the thread title...

So I'll tell you again, PLEASE read my sentiments before commenting. Good day sir.
 
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