Quick Panning Question

Sk1nZ

Sk1nZ

Ableton Addict
Im using a stereo imager (izotope ozone5) to help get into panning and im wondering why when i duplicate a track, pan one left and the other right it doesnt end up looking like a " V " shape leaving space in the middle... Instead it covers the whole field like it was with no panning

Is duplicating say the lead synth and panning one left and one right not the way to do it?

What i was trying to do is leave some room in the middle for kicks, drums etc...

Should i just leave the synths spread all over the field and not worry about it?

Thanks
 
panning the same track hard left and hard right will only give you a central/full spread sound

make each track mono or better yet using one stereo track (split it and then), use mid/side processing to take out the middle and leave the sides only
 
i forgot about m/s, i still need to learn a bit more how and when thats used so il go and do that now

what do you mean by "split it" before the m/s processing ?

it does sound better in one stereo track rather than 2 mono tracks!
 
The reason why you don't get better stereo is because they're the exact copies, and 2 exact copies from the left or right are percieved as centered, since our brain need differences between left and right to think something is stereo (take 2 copies of a mono sound, pan them hard left and right, and you'll still have mono, but for example add some slight delay to one of them and you'll have stereo, because now there's a difference between those 2).

Further on, by having a wide stereo sound both panned left and right, you actually lose more stereo information and get a less wide result as if you would have just used 1 copy of the sound.
The reason why, is that as you pan a stereo sound, the sound gets less space for the stereo spectrum, and more is merged towards mono, cutting the wideness.
For example, you have a wide stereo sound, and you start panning it to the left. Now the sound that was more far to the left in the stereo spectrum when the sound was left untouched, is now merged more and more with the part of the sound that's towards the center, since it simply can't go any further.
So take 2 copies of a stereo sound, pan both hard left and right, and you end up with a mono sound.

By the way, when you use midside-processing, check the sound in mono so the sound doesn't start cancelling itself out (which it does if you boost too much sides or cut too much mid).
 
best solution to creating width - use M/S processing reduce the signal level of the middle signal and then recombine into a stereo signal

adding fx on either will of course change the signal perceived in both channels so use that sparingly unless you are trying for a specific effect
 
thanks for clearing that up, yeah i already tried the sound in mono and it sounded terrible with m/s altered.

It seems m/s processing is more a mastering technique than something to do while making your track.. ?
 
Sk1nZ said:
It seems m/s processing is more a mastering technique than something to do while making your track.. ?
Click to expand...

I think m/s processing can be very useful whilst mixing, but as with stereo imagers or other stereo processors it's just a tool and it's all about context. If you stereo image lots of things in your mix then there's nothing to relate it to and it doesn't sound wide anymore, it has to be relative to something else.

My favourite use of m/s is on dynamically unmoving instruments that are spread across both speakers, such as pads or strings. A little dip in the centre can really help the clarity and punch of your kick, snare, bass and vocal.

Again though it's all about context, and not turning it up to 11 in an attempt to fix other issues in your mix :)
 
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dights said:
I think m/s processing can be very useful whilst mixing, but as with stereo imagers or other stereo processors it's just a tool and it's all about context. If you stereo image lots of things in your mix then there's nothing to relate it to and it doesn't sound wide anymore, it has to be relative to something else.

My favourite use of m/s is on dynamically unmoving instruments that are spread across both speakers, such as pads or strings. A little dip in the centre can really help the clarity and punch of your kick, snare, bass and vocal.



Again though it's all about context, and not turning it up to 11 in an attempt to fix other issues in your mix :)
Click to expand...

What VST do you use for MS Processing? Izotope Ozone? When you mean dip you mean lowering the MS a couple DB (or so) right? Or you do some light compression for the dip? Thanks
 
dip in this context means to pull back the signal level of the mid channel only, giving more apparent signal to the sides
 
As bandcoach says, lower the level of the mid-channel/centre by a small amount (try a dB as a starting point).

There are plenty of plugins out there to do it, I quite like Waves Center... It's quick and easy for this purpose.
 
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I understand that. I was asking what does he use to access MS processing. If the organ is spread among the spectrum, wouldn't you need to use MS to lower to "midsignal" and bring out the sides as opposed to just using a fader? Sorry if I wasn't clear.
 
with mid/side processing most insert fx allow you to adjust the relative level of the mid and side signals separately before reintegrating them into a L/R signal pair -why else would you use the process?

put more directly: to raise the perceived level of the side signal lower the output level of the Mid signal (this is based on the very sound idea of mixing being about taking things away (making them softer) rather than making things louder)

you can of course use a multi stage approach and use a M/S converter in the signal chain, then apply other fx as desired to either or both the Mid and Side signals then apply another M/S converter to bring the signal back to a L/R pair.
 
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bandcoach said:
with mid/side processing most insert fx allow you to adjust the relative level of the mid and side signals separately before reintegrating them into a L/R signal pair -why else would you use the process?

put more directly: to raise the perceived level of the side signal lower the output level of the Mid signal (this is based on the very sound idea of mixing being about taking things away (making them softer) rather than making things louder)

you can of course use a multi stage approach and use a M/S converter in the signal chain, then apply other fx as desired to either or both the Mid and Side signals then apply another M/S converter to bring the signal back to a L/R pair.
Click to expand...

I don't think I was implying I would use it for any other reason. I understand that it allows you to process the Mid signal separately from both sides. I was asking what VSTs or tools does he use to access M/S processing capabilities. You said most insert FX have this capability but as far as I know there isn't an option to do that stock within the DAW that I use, which is FL studio. I understand that Ozone 5 has M/S processing but I don't plan to pay for that anytime soon. So my main question is what other VSTs or "insert FX" do you use to access M/S processing.

BTW: I don't mean to be confrontational, just trying to explain my question. Thank you for all the knowledge you have shared!:D
 
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Sk1nZ said:
Im using a stereo imager (izotope ozone5) to help get into panning and im wondering why when i duplicate a track, pan one left and the other right it doesnt end up looking like a " V " shape leaving space in the middle... Instead it covers the whole field like it was with no panning

Is duplicating say the lead synth and panning one left and one right not the way to do it?

What i was trying to do is leave some room in the middle for kicks, drums etc...

Should i just leave the synths spread all over the field and not worry about it?

Thanks
Click to expand...

duplicating the same track and panning one to the left and one to the right GIVES YOU THE EXACT SAME SONIC RESULT AS HAVING ONE OF THOSE TRACKS PANNED TO THE CENTER.

To have a "stereo" effect, you need DIFFERENT audio information on the left and right.
 
CM03 said:
I don't think I was implying I would use it for any other reason. I understand that it allows you to process the Mid signal separately from both sides. I was asking what VSTs or tools does he use to access M/S processing capabilities. You said most insert FX have this capability but as far as I know there isn't an option to do that stock within the DAW that I use, which is FL studio. I understand that Ozone 5 has M/S processing but I don't plan to pay for that anytime soon. So my main question is what other VSTs or "insert FX" do you use to access M/S processing.

BTW: I don't mean to be confrontational, just trying to explain my question. Thank you for all the knowledge you have shared!:D
Click to expand...

I think that I may have mis-written my emphasis - I was not suggesting that insert fx in general have M/S processing abilities, but that most insert M/S fx do allow you to adjust the two level independently - a case of writing too fast and not reviewing before posting

as for what to use - I prefer to create a matrix in reason to do it; also working on my own vst at the moment to tweak how I like to tweak this stuff
 
Ive been working on a track for a while and am now wanting to make the best use of panning especially on the lead synths but cant decide whats best, ive tried all synths panned hard left and right and i didnt like the sound so ive panned some hard and some inbetween hard and centre and think it sounds better but ive listened to them both so much id like another opinion.

Im wondering if this is the right way of doing it, panning some of the synths hard and some not? How do other people pan their lead synths? Ive included two examples here, a panned version and a un-panned version.

Also if anyone has any other opinions good or bad id be interested to hear them as i know some things wont be right but i dont expect them to be just yet

Thanks

Edit: Ignore the spelling of "annihilating" !
 

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  • Anhiliating Rhythm PANNED.mp3
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  • Anhiliating Rhythm NOT PANNED.mp3
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There's no correct way of panning (only an optional method - LCR panning), but you should keep in mind that your panning need to sound balanced in the left and right, so you don't feel like your head is tilting to one of the sides.

A tip: before you state that a sound doesn't sound good panned hard left/right, first try adding another sound with a little similar characteristics to the other side, and tat can make the pan sound more logical.
For example, let's say you mix a pop/rock-track, and among all of the different instruments you have a rythmic acoustic guitar strum that you want to pan, but it doesn't sound good 100 % to the left, but then you get the idea of adding a tambourine to the track as well and pan it 100 % right - and BAM! it works! Not saying it always works, but it's worth a trial.

As for your example, I think those synths might do just fine without panning, and I personally would let something else take advantage of the empty sides, like a cool FX or some pad or so.
Further on, I think the panning makes the synth less tight, meaning it doesn't attract as much attention as it would if it was centered.
If you want an example, listen to the song "Tool - Eulogy", at around 2:36 the main riff starts, but dead mono, but then jump to 3:57, and compare, what sounded fattest? Personally I think the mono guitar got a lot more fatter, raw and brutal, while the stereo guitar was a little more ordinary and massive. Not saying your synths should be mono (don't confuse this with "centered"), but it makes a difference in what emotion/sound you convey in what panning decisions you make, and that less stereo spread can actually make a sound better.
If you still want to go with the panning, you need to adjust the synth(s) panned to the right, since it's all tilting a little too much to the right.
 
thanks for that, some good advice there! Just put that tool track on now

Thats a good point about the synths becoming less tight with panning, il see if something else like a effect will work well hard panned.

Hard LCR panning from what ive tried always makes it sound like its tilting but you make a good point with the guitar and tambourine example, guess the sounds just have to play off each other to work

Il keep them centered for now and try some effects or pads

Cheers
 
steffeeh said:
but you should keep in mind that your panning need to sound balanced in the left and right, so you don't feel like your head is tilting to one of the sides.
Click to expand...

For me it's more about how long is it going to sound imbalanced. Some tracks are just imbalanced momentarily.

You may find listening to music with more creative panning will help you with future decisions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgDrpWWxuto
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc65hFCls8E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZJTM03UByU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQzZk69P69E
 
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