Phase Cancelation Issue

Sk1nZ

Sk1nZ

Ableton Addict
Phase Cancelation Issue ?

Hi, been reading through the forum for the past couple of weeks but just signed up in hope some of the more experienced producers can help me out

I think im having a problem with phase cancelation when checking my mix in mono, sounds nice and wide in stereo but the low end and some of the higher synths are dulled down when switched to mono

I understand what phase cancelation is but having trouble fixing the problem due to using multiple layered sounds for both the bass and the synths. Im using ableton live 8 and the sounds are in the Simpler which is basically a sampler and i cannot go into the wave pattern to move it around, i can only adjust the start position of the sound. And even if i could adjust them freely i very much doubt id get them to line up perfectly due to them being quite different

Thanks



*edit* Ive now tried checking the sounds one by one and even with one sound playing it changes a huge amount when switched from stereo to mono, am i right in saying i would need to widen this sound or use EQ etc...?

Ive referenced mastered tracks by switching them from stereo to mono and there is very little difference in sound if any at all so how is it done???

Sorry about the long post but this is all new to me and quite confusing!
 
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A lot of professional mixers do a lot of the work in mono to be sure that the track sounds as good in mono as in stereo (unless they're a part of the "mono-is-over" school).
Anyway, they adjust the levels, shape the EQ, and work with dynamics, etc - all in mono.
They also check a lot of other stuff in mono, such as effects that are added (to make sure they don't clash in mono), and check the M/S-processing so the sound don't start cancelling out in mono.
And when they check in mono, it's really mono mono. They don't just sum the master to mono, but they also turn off one of the speakers and listen to the track facing the speaker.
Bass should always be in mono - at least for now. Wait with experimenting with stereo bass until you get a grip on this.
 
thanks for the reply

I cant see why people say "mono is over" when a lot of big systems, radio etc will use mono but guess that's just their opinion

this is the first track ive really concentrated on and have used it as one big learning curve over the past few weeks but am still facing a few problems.

When i play everything apart from the synths and bass in mono there is very little difference which i suppose is good, but as soon as i add them back in i get this lifeless sound which i need help with fixing and im not sure if it is phase cancelation or not

- After listening to a lot more mastered tracks by professional artists and switching it from stereo to mono there are many tracks that sound a lot duller in mono which surprised me. Why is this? I thought the aim was to make them sound as close as can be when switching from stereo to mono?

- How can some of my sample based sounds sound worse in mono than in stereo when nothing is competing with it? Surely this has nothing to do with phase cancelation...? Or is that just what happens when played in mono?
 
My thought as well, though there are people stating it, strangely...

Strange, must have been some processing on those tracks not working well in mono.

It could be that some samples actually have some stereo information that could be hard to detect, and when you sum them to mono, they cancel away, not sure, but it could happen. You could try boosting the sides all the way using midside processing just to check if there's any stereo information in the samples.
More than that you can't rely on panning anymore once you've summed the track to mono, and things that got better due to panning are then gone, so things can start muddying up.
 
Could you perhaps provide with an MP3 or Wave clip from your track in stereo so I may sum it to mono myself and check?
 
When mixing, I sum everything to mono and work from there. Not sure how you can adjust the phase of samples in Abelton, but if a sound or sample sounds looses a lot when switching to mono you can try using a plugin that adds a phase delay while you still have everything in mono. I usually just play around with the delay time until I get something that sounds less out of phase and then check to see how it sounds in stereo.

Also, going off of something Steffeeh mentioned, I like to use a little M/S processing when I a bass isn't in mono. I split the mids and sides and use EQ to take out really low frequencies on the sides and I take out anything else that sounds muddy or annoying. The side info gets cancelled out when everything is summed to mono, so you can mute any side info to see what it will sound like in mono.

Hope that helps.
 
thanks for the help

this is whats confusing me, even little sounds are sounding worse when switched to mono so im not sure if it is a phase issue. From now on i will be making tracks in mono and switching to stereo now and again, it seems the best way to do it

Ive read so much on the subject and tried things from simple delays, ping pong effects, chorus effects etc.. and it still sounds the same in mono, really weak and this whole panning thing has got me even more confused.

- Should it sound roughly the same in stereo and mono as im not too sure?

- When producing in mono is it EQ's that should be used the most to get the best sound?

Ive tried including a quick 2 bar midi clip i just made, its not from my track but it shows one of the sounds im using in stereo, and when switched to mono it just dissapeers. The file is a WAV and cant be uploaded for some reason, il try converting it to mp3 and see what happens...
 
just converted it to mp3

the sound is from a WAV sample, placed in a sampler and then the midi wrote down, i cant understand why it disapeers or how to fix it when played in mono

thanks
 

Attachments

  • Stereo To Mono Test.mp3
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And now I'm confused, since I can't hear any difference more than a light volume drop, I even checked on a spectral viewer to make sure I'm not fooling myself, but there's no difference there either.
I believe the reason for the volume drop is caused by too much sideboosting when using M/S? Since the problem disappeared when I compensated it with an M/S processor where I cut the sides back a little. But it was a subtle change.
 
good point, ive just checked the spectrum too and no difference what so ever.

Am i just confusing myself i wonder?! What im hearing is a nice thick lead sound when played in stereo but as soon as i switch to mono its a lot quieter and lifeless, is this normal?

"I believe the reason for the volume drop is caused by too much sideboosting when using M/S?" - Does that mean its too wide when in stereo and then when in mono it drops down what seems a huge amount?

Thanks
 
ive been listening to a lot more tracks from different artists in stereo and then switching to mono and it seems they all do the same which is loose that really good full sound, some dip slightly in volume but very little.

I think im comparing the great stereo sound to the centered mono and thinking it sounds lifeless which i think it does but im guessing this is normal when switching between the two?

My track does the same as the mastered ones but dips quite a bit more in volume on some parts such as synths... could this be phase cancelation?

One day soon il get my head around all this! :D
 
Phase cancellation will always occur when you sum a stereo track to mono. Some sounds will cancel more than others, it depends on the sound and the properties that make that sound stereo.
 
Adrian-MarQ said:
Phase cancellation will always occur when you sum a stereo track to mono. Some sounds will cancel more than others, it depends on the sound and the properties that make that sound stereo.
Click to expand...

thanks, first time ive heard that it always occurs, i thought ive been doing something wrong. Im hoping the right EQ'ing in mono will help fix this problem

can anyone recomend some good phase vst's as id be interested to try them out just to see what difference it makes
 
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