Fustrated to the max

Joseph Gayle

New member
So I have been producing music mostly hip-hop for about a year now and recently I've taken a notice to how important mixing and mastering is. I feel like i've tried everything but I just can't seem to get my tracks to sound as full as they need to. I use fl studio if that matters.

My average Master track effect chain will look like this

1.Izotope Eq to remove all the unwanted frequencies
2.A tad bit of compresion with wave C1 compressor (I keep the attenuation really low maybe a ratio of 1.3)
3.Izotope Excitor (I use the tape saturation function)
4. Izotope Imager
5. Izotope Maximizer. ( I push this as far as I can until it starts to clip.)

Someone PLEASE tell me what I'm doing wrong and how I should go about crafting a presentable mix
 
Oh dear. Well first off that is an extremely broad question. Being into production for as little as a year (which is bascially nothing), saying that you have just recently started to take notice on how important mixing and mastering is, something that people have spent decades trying to perfect, and that you are frustrated about not getting it right, is not realistic.. You're not supposed to get it right yet. Most likely you are not going to be very good at it for some time unless you are a natural born wonderchild at this. And I'd bet every euro I have that you should be concentrating more on the actual productions and perhaps slide into the mixing concepts to try and get a broader grasp of what that actually is and is meant to be.

Unless you are looking to become a mastering engineer at this point, I would leave it out of the equation completely until you are a lot more comfortable with composing and at the very least a very good understanding of mixing.

In fact you asked such a broad question, that the only thing I can really tell you is to study the concepts of mixing, learn the tools, the dynamic processing and other effects that you may or may not use when you are mixing. There's a lot of information on this forum alone, and much much more if you'd go outside it and ask Mr. Google what he knows about it. Study study study, practice practice practice, try new things, play around with the tools at your disposal, make some nice beats or what ever you do, and then practice some more.
 
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So I have been producing music mostly hip-hop for about a year now and recently I've taken a notice to how important mixing and mastering is. I feel like i've tried everything but I just can't seem to get my tracks to sound as full as they need to. I use fl studio if that matters.

My average Master track effect chain will look like this:

1.Izotope Eq to remove all the unwanted frequencies

Oh boy.

2.A tad bit of compresion with wave C1 compressor (I keep the attenuation really low maybe a ratio of 1.3)

Why?

3.Izotope Excitor (I use the tape saturation function)

Why?

4. Izotope Imager

Why?

5. Izotope Maximizer. ( I push this as far as I can until it starts to clip.)

Why?

Someone PLEASE tell me what I'm doing wrong and how I should go about crafting a presentable mix

I think you're starting to get the message I'm telling you by now.

I believe that you need to stop randomly fiddling around with knobs and make
sure that there's a clearly-defined purpose behind the moves you make.
There's nothing wrong with playing around a bit to try out new things, but it
sounds like playing around is the *only* thing you're doing.

I'm going to make the suggestion that I've made to quite a few people by now:
Take the time to watch full comprehensive video series on mixing a song from beginning to end (or, better yet, find someone who does a great job locally and see what they do).

-Ki
Salem Beats
 
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Here is my issue with the whole sitation. I feel like I have great ideas but they al get disregarded if the mix doesn't sound good. With the industry being the way it is now with the internet giving people more options, people are obviously only going to go for the product that sounds professional. I'm not expecting to become Dr. Dre in a day, but what I what i want to know is how I can I learn enough about mixing to be competititive. Please take a listen to my latest track on soundcloud and see what i'm talking about. I threw a maxbass plug in on the end of the 808 chain for this track and it Still doesn't sound as full as I would like it to. https://soundcloud.com/joseph-gayle/final-fantasy.
 
You threw a maxxbass plug on there and it STILL doesn't sound full? I don't wonder why..

You clearly missed the point here. Both mine and Salem Beats'. You just slap a plugin on the end of your chain, because you think that it's how you're supposed to do. You have no actual idea why you're doing what you're doing, and you think that this plugin is just magically going to make your track sound "as full as you would like it to be".

This stuff takes a long time, look at how long time people have been spending perfecting their craft, being as good as they can, and you think that you're just going to be able to get anywhere near that in a measly year? The best thing you can probably do now is what Salem Beats said and get familiar with mixing through some videos to start with, and learn what mixing really is.

Do yourself a favor and don't put anything anywhere until you know why you're putting it there. I'm all up for people experimenting, and you can get to know your tools by playing around and at least get familiar with what the knobs and stuff do. But you're going to have to study your stuff, and really learn how it's supposed to be done. You're not going to be able to get away with just throwing plugins at your sounds and call it a day.

Google mixing, read articles, google the concepts and terms you are not familiar with, google any word you are not familiar with, watch videos online of people who have some idea what they are doing, google anything you don't understand, read the manual for FL (the entire thing), google any term that you don't understand. Maybe after you've been doing that for a while you should start to get a much more clear picture of what to do, and how to do it.
 
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From listening it seems your lack of fullness comes from the composition and not so much the mix.
 
I'm not expecting to become Dr. Dre in a day

Well, Dr. Dre isn't really known as a mixing engineer.
Nonetheless, I understand what you're getting at.
You're dedicated, huh?
Good!
Go buy some lessons or a subscription:
macProVideo.com - Streaming Tutorial-Videos & HD Training Downloads for Audio, Graphics, & Video Editing Software


Your tonal sub kick is out of tune from the rest of your song.

I threw a maxbass plug in on the end of the 808 chain for this track and it Still doesn't sound as full as I would like it to.

You're just throwing plugins around.
You clearly have no idea how to use them.
I'd suggest that you start over, and make sure that you buy your plugins this time around.
When you're putting money into your tools, you'll be sure to understand what each one of them does, so that you don't waste your money.
If you want others to take you seriously, take yourself seriously first.

-Ki
Salem Beats
 
Here is my issue with the whole sitation. I feel like I have great ideas but they al get disregarded if the mix doesn't sound good. With the industry being the way it is now with the internet giving people more options, people are obviously only going to go for the product that sounds professional. I'm not expecting to become Dr. Dre in a day, but what I what i want to know is how I can I learn enough about mixing to be competititive. Please take a listen to my latest track on soundcloud and see what i'm talking about. I threw a maxbass plug in on the end of the 808 chain for this track and it Still doesn't sound as full as I would like it to. https://soundcloud.com/joseph-gayle/final-fantasy.

That's not even necessarily true...

There are people getting famous who don't sound all that professional. Professional is a completely subjective thing.

Try playing a beat for one of your friends who has no production experience whatsoever. See if they think it sounds unprofessional.

Next, let's take somebody getting really popular. Hopsin is a pretty big up and coming rapper who mixed Knock Madness completely by himself. But listen to Hop Is Back on some headphones. It really doesn't sound THAT great to me. But look how many hits it has on youtube alone https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeQWPRtxn-s

And it shouldn't. Because Hopsin not only buys equipment only because he was told to by other mixing engineers, but he is mixing in a small ass room that seems almost randomly treated.

I've had many people say they don't like songs with no imperfections. Most likely because those songs are typically pop tracks.
 
Let me clarify, I am not saying don't make your tracks sound professional.

I'm just saying don't get into the trap of focusing only on mixing, getting no tracks out there, getting stuck on perfection, getting frustrated, doubting yourself, hating yourself, because it's really just a giant waste of time and effort.
Learn about mixing, don't let it consume you.
 
In FL, my "mastering chain" was FL's 7 band EQ(to cut everything below 30hz, boost around 78hz for thump, clean up mids/his, boost highs a little to make them stick out)with FL's Limiter after it. Nothing fancy at all. I never had a problem making tracks sound full.

I don't get how "producers"(not engineers)invest in all these plug ins and get worse results than the guys who just use what came in their DAW.

Only advice I can give is lock yourself in a room with a good pair of speakers and headphones...play lots of well mixed music while comparing to your own, and use basic tools to get to the point where you've gotten as close to a "good mix" as you can before jumping out the window with advanced plugs. If you dig through demos included with FL, you can find some well mixed tunes, check out what the guys who made them did. And as crazy as it sounds, STOP RELYING ON WAVES PLUGS. As great as they can be, they often manipulate audio in unnatural ways that can be spotted quickly by someone who knows what they're doing, but often leave novices thinking they're getting "the best tools" when in actuality they're using things meant to be handled on a professional scale.

It's like getting a Ducati when you needed a Bicycle with training wheels. You'll hurt yourself. As B.S. as that may sound, I have to pass on many Waves plugs for the exact reason I'm mentioning. It's not that they're bad, it's that they have very distinct purposes and everyone manages to get all 800 of them and throw the most random combinations together altering their music in negative ways for the sake of being able to say they're using the best.
 
I don't get how "producers"(not engineers)invest in all these plug ins and get worse results than the guys who just use what came in their DAW.

Most of these guys don't invest in the plugins. They pirate them.

They want a shortcut to success, so they convince themselves that the
difference between themselves and their idols is MERELY the quality of the gear.

"If only I can get the tools the multi-platinum producers use, for FREE, I'll be SET!", is their prideful monologue floating in their brains.

It's so soothing to the ego to convince yourself that the problem with your mixes is your gear.
Gear becomes a scapegoat, and people get trapped in Gear Acquisition Syndrome:
You keep trying to make your music "better" by just picking up "better gear".

Many artists even shop for pro studios by looking at pictures of hardware racks rather than listening to each studio's work portfolios.

What would they think if they read some of the "Mixing with the Pros" interviews in "Sound on Sound" magazine,
where some of the most well-recognized Top 40 songs are mixed in-the-box with almost entirely stock plugins?


everyone manages to get all 800 of them and throw the most random combinations together altering their music in negative ways for the sake of being able to say they're using the best.

Exactly.

-Ki
Salem Beats
 
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I'm trying not to be defensive here. Trying to be humble and take everything said on this forum hear, but there's one thing I'd like to clarify the fact that I have been studying mixing and im trying not to slap things around. I included the effects chain I had on my master track and on that 808 track but didn't explain why I put them there. Although I didn't express it, everything had it's purpose (at least what I thought was their purpose). For example the maxbass plugin from waves I placed on the end of the chain for the 808 was placed in order to add extra bass frequencies to give it a bigger presence in the mix... and it did... right up until the point where I exported the mp3. Believe me everything sounded great within flstudio untill I had exported it. As far as me being a student of the game, I watch sooo many tutorials on youtube... on compression parallel processing eq limiting the importangce of balance panning etc the list goes on and on, and I've been trying to put some of the concepts i've learned into practice. I want to thank you guys from being tough on me though.
 
As far as gear goes. Im a 17 year old kid out of Atlanta. I truly have no money to spend whatsoever. My "studio" consists of my garbage laptop, pirated software(which I do intend to buy when I can afford it) a busted keyborard from the 90's, and some cheap headphones .(Would love to do better but I just can't afford it right now) What I do have is a dream and determination to get this thing right. I'm not looking for shortcuts, i'm not looking for easy ways out, I'm hungry and am willing to put the necessary time and energy in to be great. I'm just a little fustrated because it feels like the work im putting in isn't producing any results.
 
I watch sooo many tutorials on youtube... on compression parallel processing eq limiting the importangce of balance panning etc the list goes on and on, and I've been trying to put some of the concepts i've learned into practice. I want to thank you guys from being tough on me though.

Most YouTube videos I've watched are just little tidbits and techniques -- nothing involved enough to give you a paradigm on a mixer's perspective when approaching a mix.
The guy presenting the video will basically say, "Here's this technique, and here's a situation in which you can use it."
Now, that's great if you generally very confident in what you're doing and you want to add some refinement to it. It gives experienced guys something fun to play around with when we get bored!
What you'll get from an *actual lesson*, though, is generally the reverse. You get a guy repeatedly saying throughout the course of mixing a song, "Here's a new situation, and this is the strategy I'm going to use to resolve it, in addition to the steps I use to implement that strategy."

I want to thank you guys from being tough on me though.

Thanks for your great attitude towards learning.

-Ki
Salem Beats
 
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I'll be honest with you. I'm often complimented on my mixes, most of my clients say I give them the best they've ever heard. I've done work out of my home, taken it to big studios in L.A. and had engineers argue that I lied about what gear I was using because of the quality. A huge reason I don't consider myself a "professional", but a solution for guys who need tracks mixed is my "unorthodox" approach.

Everything I've learned about mixing was learned from sitting in studios watching the engineer while others were off in their own world...and from listening to music. I don't understand terms and formalities to how things should be done, I just do what sounds right. I surgically listen to music. Through multiple speaker systems and headphones trying to pick up every detail. I suggest you do the same with your mixes, surgically listen. No matter how much I tell others to do the same, I notice most people go for instant improvement.

It could be that I watched lots of people on hardware in a different era, but I have to listen to a song twice all the way through before I turn a single knob most of the time, and I'm not adding any effect or processor unless it's absolutely called for. While making a beat in the box, not much is absolutely called for in my world. Pan, Gain, a little EQ on a master track(and a limiter for listening/demoing purposes if shopping the beat), effects built into the VIs I'm using, and I'm good. With a finalized song, I'll improve that mix to accompany vocals and any live elements added.

It escapes me how once upon a time a beat could be done on nothing but a Korg Triton and "knock, thump, be full, sound polished", but we've arrived in a world where everyone has access to compressor on top of compressor, and nothing ever has these qualities anymore.

I think we do too much too early these days with the idea we're supposed to have the sound of a finalized record before any of the steps that come before finalizing a record are completed. Don't think of this as me "being tough" on you, I ginuinely think you'd benefit from taking a step back, removing all those plug ins, and mixing the beat with NOTHING in place first.

A huge factor in screwing mixes these days is the use of a limiter on the master track. Most go with the "easy to use' modules without understanding the elements of the song being drained that have to be restored through the use of other tools. I don't know much about IZ Ozone, pretty sure it doesn't drain as much as say Waves L3, but within FL, I've never used more than the FL Limiter which doesn't drain much at all when it's not pushed beyond limits. When shopping a beat, it shouldn't be the same volume as a finalized song on an album, unless you want to do alot of work and tweaking in vain, because everything you do is gonna be stripped when they request dry stem files, or even better, they'll use the audio file they receive, lower it, boost everything around it, add another limiter on top of it in the Master Bus of the song, and end up with a crappy finalized song where your beat sounds overdriven and squashed for all the work you've done.

I've somehow gone into a rant, so I'll stop typing at this point, hope I've given some useful advice. Good luck.
 
^great post.

TS, I'd recommend looking up JC Concat of the Point Blank music school... IMO his mixing tutorials are second to none based on what I've seen on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7JC82ncygg Here is one for starters, you can search his name on their youtube channels to get more mixing videos.
 
I'll be honest with you. I'm often complimented on my mixes, most of my clients say I give them the best they've ever heard. I've done work out of my home, taken it to big studios in L.A. and had engineers argue that I lied about what gear I was using because of the quality. A huge reason I don't consider myself a "professional", but a solution for guys who need tracks mixed is my "unorthodox" approach.

Everything I've learned about mixing was learned from sitting in studios watching the engineer while others were off in their own world...and from listening to music. I don't understand terms and formalities to how things should be done, I just do what sounds right. I surgically listen to music. Through multiple speaker systems and headphones trying to pick up every detail. I suggest you do the same with your mixes, surgically listen. No matter how much I tell others to do the same, I notice most people go for instant improvement.

It could be that I watched lots of people on hardware in a different era, but I have to listen to a song twice all the way through before I turn a single knob most of the time, and I'm not adding any effect or processor unless it's absolutely called for. While making a beat in the box, not much is absolutely called for in my world. Pan, Gain, a little EQ on a master track(and a limiter for listening/demoing purposes if shopping the beat), effects built into the VIs I'm using, and I'm good. With a finalized song, I'll improve that mix to accompany vocals and any live elements added.

It escapes me how once upon a time a beat could be done on nothing but a Korg Triton and "knock, thump, be full, sound polished", but we've arrived in a world where everyone has access to compressor on top of compressor, and nothing ever has these qualities anymore.

I think we do too much too early these days with the idea we're supposed to have the sound of a finalized record before any of the steps that come before finalizing a record are completed. Don't think of this as me "being tough" on you, I ginuinely think you'd benefit from taking a step back, removing all those plug ins, and mixing the beat with NOTHING in place first.

A huge factor in screwing mixes these days is the use of a limiter on the master track. Most go with the "easy to use' modules without understanding the elements of the song being drained that have to be restored through the use of other tools. I don't know much about IZ Ozone, pretty sure it doesn't drain as much as say Waves L3, but within FL, I've never used more than the FL Limiter which doesn't drain much at all when it's not pushed beyond limits. When shopping a beat, it shouldn't be the same volume as a finalized song on an album, unless you want to do alot of work and tweaking in vain, because everything you do is gonna be stripped when they request dry stem files, or even better, they'll use the audio file they receive, lower it, boost everything around it, add another limiter on top of it in the Master Bus of the song, and end up with a crappy finalized song where your beat sounds overdriven and squashed for all the work you've done.

I've somehow gone into a rant, so I'll stop typing at this point, hope I've given some useful advice. Good luck.

hey man speaking of limiting I listened to your beat Birckz, very nice... I like how you changed around the instrumentation a lot. I noticed it was pretty damn loud however... I master my beats to around -9RMS... what was that one sitting at if you don't mind me asking?
 
I'll be honest with you. I'm often complimented on my mixes, most of my clients say I give them the best they've ever heard. I've done work out of my home, taken it to big studios in L.A. and had engineers argue that I lied about what gear I was using because of the quality. A huge reason I don't consider myself a "professional", but a solution for guys who need tracks mixed is my "unorthodox" approach.

Everything I've learned about mixing was learned from sitting in studios watching the engineer while others were off in their own world...and from listening to music. I don't understand terms and formalities to how things should be done, I just do what sounds right. I surgically listen to music. Through multiple speaker systems and headphones trying to pick up every detail. I suggest you do the same with your mixes, surgically listen. No matter how much I tell others to do the same, I notice most people go for instant improvement.

It could be that I watched lots of people on hardware in a different era, but I have to listen to a song twice all the way through before I turn a single knob most of the time, and I'm not adding any effect or processor unless it's absolutely called for. While making a beat in the box, not much is absolutely called for in my world. Pan, Gain, a little EQ on a master track(and a limiter for listening/demoing purposes if shopping the beat), effects built into the VIs I'm using, and I'm good. With a finalized song, I'll improve that mix to accompany vocals and any live elements added.

It escapes me how once upon a time a beat could be done on nothing but a Korg Triton and "knock, thump, be full, sound polished", but we've arrived in a world where everyone has access to compressor on top of compressor, and nothing ever has these qualities anymore.

I think we do too much too early these days with the idea we're supposed to have the sound of a finalized record before any of the steps that come before finalizing a record are completed. Don't think of this as me "being tough" on you, I ginuinely think you'd benefit from taking a step back, removing all those plug ins, and mixing the beat with NOTHING in place first.

A huge factor in screwing mixes these days is the use of a limiter on the master track. Most go with the "easy to use' modules without understanding the elements of the song being drained that have to be restored through the use of other tools. I don't know much about IZ Ozone, pretty sure it doesn't drain as much as say Waves L3, but within FL, I've never used more than the FL Limiter which doesn't drain much at all when it's not pushed beyond limits. When shopping a beat, it shouldn't be the same volume as a finalized song on an album, unless you want to do alot of work and tweaking in vain, because everything you do is gonna be stripped when they request dry stem files, or even better, they'll use the audio file they receive, lower it, boost everything around it, add another limiter on top of it in the Master Bus of the song, and end up with a crappy finalized song where your beat sounds overdriven and squashed for all the work you've done.

I've somehow gone into a rant, so I'll stop typing at this point, hope I've given some useful advice. Good luck.

this was like reading me (except for the bit about not knowing the technical stuff....:) )
 
I'll be honest with you. I'm often complimented on my mixes, most of my clients say I give them the best they've ever heard. I've done work out of my home, taken it to big studios in L.A. and had engineers argue that I lied about what gear I was using because of the quality. A huge reason I don't consider myself a "professional", but a solution for guys who need tracks mixed is my "unorthodox" approach.

Everything I've learned about mixing was learned from sitting in studios watching the engineer while others were off in their own world...and from listening to music. I don't understand terms and formalities to how things should be done, I just do what sounds right. I surgically listen to music. Through multiple speaker systems and headphones trying to pick up every detail. I suggest you do the same with your mixes, surgically listen. No matter how much I tell others to do the same, I notice most people go for instant improvement.

It could be that I watched lots of people on hardware in a different era, but I have to listen to a song twice all the way through before I turn a single knob most of the time, and I'm not adding any effect or processor unless it's absolutely called for. While making a beat in the box, not much is absolutely called for in my world. Pan, Gain, a little EQ on a master track(and a limiter for listening/demoing purposes if shopping the beat), effects built into the VIs I'm using, and I'm good. With a finalized song, I'll improve that mix to accompany vocals and any live elements added.

It escapes me how once upon a time a beat could be done on nothing but a Korg Triton and "knock, thump, be full, sound polished", but we've arrived in a world where everyone has access to compressor on top of compressor, and nothing ever has these qualities anymore.

I think we do too much too early these days with the idea we're supposed to have the sound of a finalized record before any of the steps that come before finalizing a record are completed. Don't think of this as me "being tough" on you, I ginuinely think you'd benefit from taking a step back, removing all those plug ins, and mixing the beat with NOTHING in place first.

A huge factor in screwing mixes these days is the use of a limiter on the master track. Most go with the "easy to use' modules without understanding the elements of the song being drained that have to be restored through the use of other tools. I don't know much about IZ Ozone, pretty sure it doesn't drain as much as say Waves L3, but within FL, I've never used more than the FL Limiter which doesn't drain much at all when it's not pushed beyond limits. When shopping a beat, it shouldn't be the same volume as a finalized song on an album, unless you want to do alot of work and tweaking in vain, because everything you do is gonna be stripped when they request dry stem files, or even better, they'll use the audio file they receive, lower it, boost everything around it, add another limiter on top of it in the Master Bus of the song, and end up with a crappy finalized song where your beat sounds overdriven and squashed for all the work you've done.

I've somehow gone into a rant, so I'll stop typing at this point, hope I've given some useful advice. Good luck.

OH god da +1's

Plus you have absolutely no clue if somebody on a tutorial is credible, no matter how many views they have.

Sometimes I feel like the songs played in those mixing tutorials are songs somebody else made.

Plus, any tip given only applies to people that like their own mixes. You might not like them.
 
hey man speaking of limiting I listened to your beat Birckz, very nice... I like how you changed around the instrumentation a lot. I noticed it was pretty damn loud however... I master my beats to around -9RMS... what was that one sitting at if you don't mind me asking?

That's an OOOOOLLLLLLDDDDD beat. You'll notice it's "louder" than everything else on my page and still not "Loud" as a commercially released song. The track was made completely in Reason 4 or 5 and all that was applied was the MClass EQ and Maximizer included in the program(that most don't think are good enough tools.

The reason the maximizer was so heavily applied was because I posted that song to show people here on FP that Reason's refills were capable of keeping up with vstis and I was competing with songs posted by other FP members. You can hear the low end wasn't as tamed as it should have been, who cares, it was just a beat for displaying purposes. Nothing in that track was EQed beyond the "hi and lo" functions in Reason's old mixer BTW. And not one drum was tweaked beyond the knobs on the Redrum Drum Module.

There's another song on that page called "Upside Down". Completely done in FL using FL stock drums no effects beyond the FL Limiter and a 7 Band EQ on the mastered track. 2 Pistols recorded to it and I was pissed he didn't hit me back for stems, felt the mix suffered. Just glad I didn't squash it any more than I did to begin with.
 
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