Do drums from new drum kits even need compression ?
- Thread starter BeatsByD
- Start date
Wallengard
Manipulator of energy
Not necessarily.. You'd be surprised how great and energetic sound you can get with using the right timbres alone instead of killing your samples with compressors.
Then again there is nothing wrong to use one on any previously compressed sound, it all depends on the sound itself and what you are trying to achieve.
Then again there is nothing wrong to use one on any previously compressed sound, it all depends on the sound itself and what you are trying to achieve.
Wallengard
Manipulator of energy
Well if you think about that for a second, if you would try and make your own sample libraries, and let's say for the sake of conversation that you want to do a series of bassdrums. You probably wouldn't want to leave your synthesized (and possibly layered) bassdrums unprocessed because it might not reflect what you had in mind, and may be entirely different than the sound you intended to do in the first place.
I think it's a long shot to even try and find samples, particularly those aimed for electronic music (mainstream type samples) that have not already been processed one way or the other. All of them do not have to be like the Vengeance sample packs, but the vast majority of samples you'll get today has been processed, and most people couldn't even tell the difference.
You can still mold the sounds with more compression, transient shapers, harmonic exciters and layering etc etc to make a processed sound do the thing that you want it to do.
Last edited:
Yumid
New member
Its not about the sound its giving..its about the mixing process later on and going in with a bunch of pre compressed sounds..Then compressing them even more through your Compression Bus in the mix.. Sure you can do it..Hell, everyone does.. Im saying I don't agree with it. Most real mix engineers that do that for their actual career would probably agree. (I don't, but I'm around them everyday)
Im not saying it doesn't happen everywhere these days you're right that it does. I'm saying its ridiculous that it does IMO.
Its not the sample pack creators job to tweak the sound to EXACTLY how its supposed to sound. Unless the demographic buying your sample packs are complete noobs who don't know how to do it themselves anyway. Those are just sales tactics that WORK, but then the sample suffers even if it MAY sound a bit better right from the 'raw' sample. The sample should be the raw sound, and the processing should be done by the producer/mixer. Like I've said before, it happens all the time I know..But theres a reason more 'accomplished' producers/mixers make fun of music these days. And 90% of those jokes stem from dynamic reasons solely because of stuff like this happening.
You can always add effects if needed, you cant take them off once they are printed to the sound though. Pre compressing a sample before purchase does absolutely nothing of positive value for a producer that actually knows how to use compression themselves. If they want it compressed they will, if they don't, at least its not printed right onto the sample.
The only scenario i could ever understand a sample pack creator pre compressing or using effects, is to make the sound better from the sales point strictly as a sales tactic. It doesn't mean its the best thing for the sample, it just sounds better to the people who don't know any better buying your sample pack.
Most producers don't even know the hell they put the mix engineer through when stems are sent off to be mixed/mastered. Just think about it, you buy a compressed sample, compress it during tracking then compress it during mixing. Now you have a sample compressed THREE times..why? Its squashed to hell by that point. Haven't even got to mastering yet.
Last edited:
Wallengard
Manipulator of energy
A bunch of pre-compressed sounds really shouldn't present much difficulty, I'm not talking about the worst samples out there that are really squashed to death, but many times the compression is not intended to be for mixing, rather for creative purposes, so in that case it doesn't really matter if the sound has been compressed before you start mixing it or not. Having unprocessed 24-bit samples is not a prerequisite for a professional sound.
It is the sample pack creators job to tweak the sound EXACTLY how it's supposed to sound.. you are still in control of shaping that sound however you wish, the fact that it has been slightly processed in the first place, again, should not make any difference unless we are talking about a massive brick wall limiter on the sounds. Like I mentioned before I believe it has more to do with creative purposes rather than try to squeeze all the dynamics of the samples and make them in your face already from start (which I'm aware of happens anyway..)
Slapping on a compressor on an already compressed sounds really doesn't do anything to ruin the sound further if you know what you are doing and why you are putting one there in the first place.
I just have to say that I don't really agree with your view on this matter. I don't have any problem with already processed samples all though we may or may not all be better off with samples that have not been (so that we can learn more). They do not present any kind of mixing issues in any of my productions because dynamic range is not only about the individual levels of a sample, but all the sounds relative to one another, which is 100% possible even with highly processed drum samples.
Last edited:
Wallengard
Manipulator of energy
This is pretty much the point I wanted to make.. but failed miserably I think.
You said it much better than I could.
Last edited:
Yumid
New member
I never once said anything about taking out harmonics or changing waveforms/ envelopes, etc... In fact I don't think I said anything about anything other than compressors and dynamics. A sound isn't a sound because its compressed. Its the same sound as it was before but its just squashed more. By no means are you changing the formant of the sample by leaving the compressor off. You aren't just gonna take the compressor off then all of a sudden have the whole patch transform back into a harmonic-less Sine wave.. You guys keep bringing it back to how the sample itself sounds..this isnt about just the sound of the sample.
You guys aren't looking at this from the same point of view I am. You're looking at is as an average consumer that doesnt care if every things compressed before mixing and mastering. Ask any mix/mastering engineer what they would think about getting a bunch of pre compressed stems for a mix/mastering project, I'm sure there are some here who can chime in. And I'm not talking about mixing your own projects because obviously you know what you're getting into when you do that so who cares..but if you ever have that track played on LOUD stadium speakers and its been compressed 3 times; you're gonna be able to tell the unwanted difference compared to if it hasn't been compressed as much.. I probably missed addressing a lot of stuff in this reply but ill read them more in the morning its late.
Last edited:
Wallengard
Manipulator of energy
I mean if you don't like the way that a sound is compressed, then you won't use it. Same as any other unprocessed sample that doesn't sound the way you like it to. The compression on many samples are just as much a part of the sound design as any other effect that may be applied to it. In fact I bet most of the time, if the compression is done really well you wouldn't even be able to tell that it has been compressed at all, let alone would it introduce any problems during your mixdown.
Don't get me wrong I understand exactly what you mean, of course if the sample is compressed to oblivion, it's not exactly the optimal starting point for a mix.. but I feel like you are missing the fact that compression is not always used to squash the living hell out of any dynamics in a sample, but rather to highlight certain areas of a sample and possibly even glue some layers together. that would otherwise sound separated.
And I'm not looking at this as an average consumer who doesn't give a rats ass whether or not any processing has been done to the samples of my choice. I know the difference very well and what impact it may have on the sound, thank you very much.
Don't get me wrong I understand exactly what you mean, of course if the sample is compressed to oblivion, it's not exactly the optimal starting point for a mix.. but I feel like you are missing the fact that compression is not always used to squash the living hell out of any dynamics in a sample, but rather to highlight certain areas of a sample and possibly even glue some layers together. that would otherwise sound separated.
And I'm not looking at this as an average consumer who doesn't give a rats ass whether or not any processing has been done to the samples of my choice. I know the difference very well and what impact it may have on the sound, thank you very much.
Last edited:
Yumid
New member
No offense but I really don't think you know what I'm talking about because you are right back to talking about the sound of the sample again...This has nothing to do with the SOUND of the individual sample in most scenarios. Im talking about the distortion over(OVER!) compression causes when played in certain environments. Just never mind I guess lol. You guys keep changing what this debate was originally about.
Last edited:
Wallengard
Manipulator of energy
I thought this was exactly what the debate was about all along..
I'm not trying to convert you or anything. Whether you believe it or not doesn't change the fact that I really do understand exactly what your point is, but you refuse to see mine.
You were the one who said you wouldn't ever buy anything that comes compressed already, which you probably already have, whether you know it or not. That's why I'm having this debate, I don't know about you.
I'm not trying to convert you or anything. Whether you believe it or not doesn't change the fact that I really do understand exactly what your point is, but you refuse to see mine.
You were the one who said you wouldn't ever buy anything that comes compressed already, which you probably already have, whether you know it or not. That's why I'm having this debate, I don't know about you.
Last edited:
Salem Beats
Ki from Salem-Beats.com
Compressing a sound often does, in fact, create a noticeable change in its character.
At its core, a compressor is essentially
a particular type of distortion unit adapted for a specific purpose.
Don't believe me?
Ok.
Play a sine wave bass at around 60hz or so,
slap on a compressor,
set the attack and release on your compressor to <1ms,
crank up the ratio to the maximum,
and start lowering the threshold.
You'll notice extra harmonics:
an alteration of the character of the sound caused by distortion.
In fact,
compression is often at the core of the harmonic exciters that we use.
Many of these exciters
are parallel compression circuits.
They create a copy of the unprocessed audio input and route it to an internal buffer,
compress it (read: "distort" it) to create upper harmonics,
and blend an amount of the distorted audio back in with the original audio.
This isn't to say that you always make an obvious change in sonic character
every time you compress something,
but it is to say,
that compression is often a key element in attaining the final character of a sound.
And because this is true,
you shouldn't shun a sample simply because it has been compressed.
You should shun a sample
only
because it doesn't sound good.
-Ki
Salem Beats
P.S.,
A distortion unit isn't necessarily a specific type of compressor, and a compressor isn't necessarily a specific type of distortion unit.
Since neither one is clearly a derivative of the other, you can say that they both belong to the family of "non-linear processing units".
Last edited:
Yumid
New member
I was referring to the fundamental tone only (I mentioned formant). But like you said, it adds distortion. Which I know, which is why I have been so adamant about trying to make it clear that i am not talking about the sound of a single sample being the final outcome, it won't make a difference there..Im talking about the finished product having everything and ALL that distortion added into one sound assuming you have other compression variables in your production. And then assuming even more compression will be added later. If you had to summarize EVERYTHING I was saying into one phrase it would just be. Take it easy on your compression from the beginning as much as possible because it will be used later regardless...And I'm pretty sure anyone can agree with that. Just doesnt make sense to me to have a sample compressed before its even planning on being used for anything specific. Shit, just throw an "Un compressed Samples" sticker right on pack then people know and can do it themselves.
Can almost guarantee youll have a demographic of customers coming back to only buy your packs because they know they'll be uncompressed and they have the freedom to do whatever they want with it. If the consumer KNOWS nothing is pre compressed, its not that hard for them to experiment with a compresser to find the sound they want, at least then they aren't forced into having it compressed.
Distortion on Distortion on Distortion
Last edited:
Salem Beats
Ki from Salem-Beats.com
If you compress everything on a per-source basis, will you even need as much compression on the busses or over the mix as a whole?
By contrast,
if you're intentionally going light on compression because you're scared of stacking compressors,
your bus compressors and mix compressors are going to be working overtime,
and you'll likely have a harder time finding compression settings that lead to your desired outcome.
Go easy with the compression only if that's what's called for. If the input calls for heavy-handed compression, do that.
This mini-discussion is a bit of a tangent, though, because the entire thread is about compression only on drum samples.
That's it.
In that context, compression can be part of the character and shouldn't be discouraged.
If it gives you the sound you're after, squash the drum samples to bits.
-Ki
Salem Beats
Last edited:
Yumid
New member
hahah ya, ill take the blame for that one.. I kind of High jacked the thread and totally changed the topic. Sorry OP, if you're even here anymore.
