Clean Trick 4 your Mix

[dvyce]

I'm talking about how two sub or bass sources playing different notes sound horrid together. Like if you loaded a bass sample and played a chord

So we've established that frequency masking is a psycho acoustic theory, but is it practical in the bass areas? Or do these sound bad simply cause of mud. To your point on orchestras and how that is an example of how frequency masking isn't real, they are still spacing out the bass instruments.

The more specific part was not do producers layer instruments in general, it was do they layer their bass instruments (say a sub bass under a bass guitar)

how does that relate to "masking"?

"sounds like shit" does not equal "masking".


"frequency masking" is a "psychoacoustic theory", sure.... But it has nothing to do with mixing.... nor has it ever been used correctly (as far as I have ever seen) in a "mixing" context.


Forget about the term "frequency masking".

"frequency masking"= you can't hear quiet sounds because there is too much other noise around.

Like "hey, I can't hear you with this parade going on. let's go inside where it's quiet so I can hear better"

It is not a case of "make sure you carve out frequency space in this instrument so you can hear that other instrument because the frequency will be masked"


To go into why some sounds are better monophonically and some are better polyphonically is really off topic and too much to go into here for a concept unrelated to the one at hand.



"frequency masking" is the incredibly basic concept of "if you have too much loud shit playing, you wont hear the quieter stuff."

And in the real world, that is how it will be referred to... "i can't hear that part in your mix because there is too much shit going on in there."

 

[Salem Beats]

I'm talking about how two sub or bass sources playing different notes sound horrid together. Like if you loaded a bass sample and played a chord

That's a combination of:

#1 Lack of definition in human hearing at low frequencies.
We do not perceive all frequencies with the same amount of detail. As a frequency gets closer and closer to the limits of our perception on either end of the continuum, it gradually goes out of focus.
Just as our eyes are very sensitive to the bright yellows and greens that occur right in the middle of the color spectrum, our ears are very sensitive to upper-mid frequencies that occur in approximately the same spot of the audible continuum.

#2 Very audible phase cancellation issues (when applicable), and beating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_(acoustics)) at lower frequencies.
Certain acoustic phenomena are very audible in lower frequencies (read #3 below for more detail on why).
When phase cancellation occurs in bass frequencies, it can leave a very obvious gap in overall tonal balance.
Beating is also more audible the lower you go, as you start to notice the type of effects you would normally associate with a synth's LFO.
At higher frequencies, this phenomenon still exists but is generally is perceived as a change in timbre instead.

#3 Smaller gaps in frequency between the fundamental frequencies of notes.
To understand this a little better, consult this chart right here (http://www.logicalpianolessons.com/images/lesson 102 - pianofrequencies.jpg), telling you the particular fundamental frequency for each note on a grand piano.
Notice and keep in mind that each octave represents a doubling of frequency, but each octave contains the same number of notes.
Since the number of notes in each octave stays constant (but the notes need to cover twice the distance to compensate for the doubling between octaves), it stands to reason that the higher up you travel on the keyboard, the more frequency space there is between two notes.
That's exactly what happens!
At the very lowest end of the piano chart, you'll see that the difference between A and B is about 3.3Hz -- that's such a small difference that it takes a trained human ear to notice.
("The just-noticeable difference (jnd) (the threshold at which a change is perceived) depends on the tone's frequency content. Below 500 Hz, the jnd is about 3 Hz for sine waves, and 1 Hz for complex tones" - Wikipedia page on Just-Noticeable Difference)
At the highest end of the piano, on the other hand, the difference between A and B is about 430Hz -- the first half of the entire keyboard doesn't even cover as large a frequency range as is covered by the difference between these two notes!

-Ki
Salem Beats

 

[crimsonhawk47]

That's a combination of:

#1 Lack of definition in human hearing at low frequencies.
We do not perceive all frequencies with the same amount of detail. As a frequency gets closer and closer to the limits of our perception on either end of the continuum, it gradually goes out of focus.
Just as our eyes are very sensitive to the bright yellows and greens that occur right in the middle of the color spectrum, our ears are very sensitive to upper-mid frequencies that occur in approximately the same spot of the audible continuum.

#2 Very audible phase cancellation issues (when applicable), and beating (Beat (acoustics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) at lower frequencies.
Certain acoustic phenomena are very audible in lower frequencies (read #3 below for more detail on why).
When phase cancellation occurs in bass frequencies, it can leave a very obvious gap in overall tonal balance.
Beating is also more audible the lower you go, as you start to notice the type of effects you would normally associate with a synth's LFO.
At higher frequencies, this phenomenon still exists but is generally is perceived as a change in timbre instead.

#3 Smaller gaps in frequency between the fundamental frequencies of notes.
To understand this a little better, consult this chart right here (http://www.logicalpianolessons.com/images/lesson 102 - pianofrequencies.jpg), telling you the particular fundamental frequency for each note on a grand piano.
Notice and keep in mind that each octave represents a doubling of frequency, but each octave contains the same number of notes.
Since the number of notes in each octave stays constant (but the notes need to cover twice the distance to compensate for the doubling between octaves), it stands to reason that the higher up you travel on the keyboard, the more frequency space there is between two notes.
That's exactly what happens!
At the very lowest end of the piano chart, you'll see that the difference between A and B is about 3.3Hz -- that's such a small difference that it takes a trained human ear to notice.
("The just-noticeable difference (jnd) (the threshold at which a change is perceived) depends on the tone's frequency content. Below 500 Hz, the jnd is about 3 Hz for sine waves, and 1 Hz for complex tones" - Wikipedia page on Just-Noticeable Difference)
At the highest end of the piano, on the other hand, the difference between A and B is about 430Hz -- the first half of the entire keyboard doesn't even cover as large a frequency range as is covered by the difference between these two notes!

-Ki
Salem Beats

That helps answer my question.

how does that relate to "masking"?

"sounds like shit" does not equal "masking".


"frequency masking" is a "psychoacoustic theory", sure.... But it has nothing to do with mixing.... nor has it ever been used correctly (as far as I have ever seen) in a "mixing" context.


Forget about the term "frequency masking".

"frequency masking"= you can't hear quiet sounds because there is too much other noise around.

Like "hey, I can't hear you with this parade going on. let's go inside where it's quiet so I can hear better"

It is not a case of "make sure you carve out frequency space in this instrument so you can hear that other instrument because the frequency will be masked"


To go into why some sounds are better monophonically and some are better polyphonically is really off topic and too much to go into here for a concept unrelated to the one at hand.



"frequency masking" is the incredibly basic concept of "if you have too much loud shit playing, you wont hear the quieter stuff."

And in the real world, that is how it will be referred to... "i can't hear that part in your mix because there is too much shit going on in there."

I get that now, but I was just wondering if the reason frequency masking was more a theory than a practice was because it was being applied to all frequencies.

And you wanna talk about off topic, this thread used to be about high pass filtering XD

 

[dvyce]

I get that now, but I was just wondering if the reason frequency masking was more a theory than a practice was because it was being applied to all frequencies.

It is not "more a theory than a practice"... I am not sure you are understanding what "frequency masking" is...

and it it is not "being applied to all frequencies" (which doesn't even make sense or rate to what the actual concept of "frequency masking" is)

it it is not a mixing concept.

it is not even a musical concept.

it does not relate to like frequencies covering each other.

it is not a "theory to be applied" in ANY situation.

it simply explains an auditory effect completely unrelated to music mixing.

it simply states that something exists.


you should forget you ever heard the term "frequency masking" and get on with your life because it is obviously getting in the way of you learning about mixing.

It it is an irrelevant term that doesn't deserve a microsecond of your time.

 

[crimsonhawk47]

Will do.

 

[AMNbeats]

Yeh good post. I seen the usefulness of cutting frequencies via a youtube vid. I think it may have been a warbeats EQ tutorial. I can definitely agree that it does clear the mix up by getting rid of any unwanted residue frequencies that may emanate from certain samples.

 

[crimsonBZD]

i mean, this fell old now, and there were of course some very good and detailed responses before mine, but the way I might be able to give you a different angle on it is, since bass sounds are generally powerful enough on their own, and in a lot of this industry we select heavy bass sounds as well, if you're layering them and they're too loud they max out/peak/scream or whatever one may choose to call it very easily. But a track I just recently mixed, I found the original bass the producer put in was very weak imo, so I replicated and replaced it with 3 different basses, but all of them landed at or below like -30db and still I had to mix the overall baseline down some.

 

[district2019]

i usually make a bass noise then high pass it and copy the original bass (low passed instead of high pass) that way i can keep the two sections clean (no freq masking) but everything still sounds organic.