Vocal/Drum Mixing

S

S.Tek

New member
What's up people?

I've been recently focusing more on mixing my beats to get a better quality off of them, but there seems to be an issue that I just can't get around: drums, more necessarily, the kick drum. Although there are some beats I got it right, most of the times, my kick drums seems like it dissipates into the song. I can either make it louder, and ruin the whole mix, and it still won't have that punchy feel, or make punchy, but almost unhearable. Suggestions? I tried compression, eq and limiter, but there seems to be something missing...

Other of my questions, although not a priority: how do you mix vocals? Eventually I'd like to record hip-hop tracks, but I don't know if I should mix the vocals a part from the beat and then put them together and mix them both, mix every beat stem/instrument together with every vocal track, or mix the vocal with the beat mix/mastered on top.

Thanks in advance for helping. Peace!
 
For the drums, it sounds like you've put a lot of effort into the kick. What about the rest of the track? See if you can do anything about sounds that might compete with your drums. Also, try bringing in a song that can guide you through some mixing decisions.

For vocals, try doing the mixing in one session. Mixing vocals on top of a stereo audio file causes some unnecessary issues .
 
Hey, could you post an example? I can only speculate as to what the problem is, but it sounds like you are having problems with what is AROUND the kick. If it seems to dissipate into the mix, then surely there are things hitting at the same time that are stepping on it, and it might do you more good to process those elements than the kick itself. Would like an example though.

Mixing vocals: I would seriously just **** around with compression as much as you can. People say don't compress more than 4db or whatever numbers they throw out, but you can't learn the limits unless you pass them. So I would say, for now, play around with compression a lot. It completely depends on the song though. Rap typically has a good amount of compression on the vocal, and there tends to be more on a vocal the denser the beat is. Punchy vocals make it easier to hear what they are saying without turning the track up too loud. Because we hear consonants and fill in the vowels for ourselves, so to speak. At the same time, there are people that automate the volume of a vocal so they don't have to compress it as much (Kendrick's mix engineer). This is all stuff that can only be theorized about, and theory won't do you good. You just need to play with people's vocals. One thing I will say is, if you get the attack and release settings right, you can dial in A LOT of compression, theoretically. If I feel I'm over compressing, I will tweak attack and release before I tweak threshold.

When it comes to eq, it's an even bigger gray area. Some rap vocals have a lot of it high passed and they are barely gliding over the beat. Super thin vocals. Others are full and warm. The less eq you do, the more natural it will sound. And the wider bandwidths you use, it also tends to sound more natural. It COMPLETELY depends on the song though. Most people can agree a generous amount of compression is going to go on any rap vocal, but not so much with eq. They might chop the shit out of it. They might leave it very natural.

And you should not mix the beat and vocal separate, and definitely don't master them separate. It happens sometimes. Sometimes all you have is a stereo track of the entire beat, and you have to mix the vocals in. It's not impossible, but remember how I said leave the eq on rap vox natural? Well the best way to do that is eq the instruments around the vocal. Because hip-hop instruments rarely sound natural. It's totally cool to cut a lot from some horns if they're stepping on the vocal.

Listen to Drake's "Look what you've done." Now, trying to compete with a studio album of an already world famous rapper, with a very talented engineer, is a fool's errand when you are just starting out. But there is something to be said about 40's production style. I'm talking specifically about the intro of this song, which is about a minute long. The piano sample (which is a youtube video) is heavily low passed. They could have tried something else. They could have let the piano be in full range, and then boosted Drake's high end. But that would've sounded like shit. Less is more, and contrast is king in music. Drake's vocal sounds really nice and crisp on here. Part of that is obviously the way they recorded it, but part of it is the piano in the background. It's so dark, that it's hard to not make the vocals seem bright. That's how contrast works. Then you can listen to Drake's "Lord Knows." Still an interesting sounding vocal, but I wouldn't say it's crisp, would you? It's just kinda there and just present enough to know what he's saying. Drake and 40 do this low pass trick a lot. It has been their way of breaking the rules. They lowpass a shitload of their stuff. I'm not saying you need to do that, but this is why it's better to mix the vocals and the beat stems together. If you ever find yourself saying the vocals are too much or not enough of this, consider how the vocals contrast to the beat.
 
I tried to put out some pressure of the low end, by reducing the bass' power, and eq the high end of the sample, and whole master track...but it probably is that.

As for the vocals, thanks for the tip, actually makes sense, but needed to make sure.
 
crimsonhawk47 said:
Hey, could you post an example? I can only speculate as to what the problem is, but it sounds like you are having problems with what is AROUND the kick. If it seems to dissipate into the mix, then surely there are things hitting at the same time that are stepping on it, and it might do you more good to process those elements than the kick itself. Would like an example though.
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You could check out my latest video, the other two beats aren't that better, but they're also not that as bad, when it comes to this issue (at least in my opinion). I tried to eq things, removing some low end from the bass, sidechaining it with the kick and some compression, and making the sample and whole master track high levels stand out.

As for the vocals, I appreciate the detailed breakdown of how it's done, and I'll give a try on those tips when the time comes. Other than that, I get what you said about Drake's 'Look What You've Done' vs 'Lord Knows'. I'll be on the lookout for that.

The link to my youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/SuspiciousTechniques/feed
- The best example is probably 'The Resolve', but check out the other two, to see look for some inconsistencies.
 
S.Tek said:
I tried to put out some pressure of the low end, by reducing the bass' power, and eq the high end of the sample, and whole master track...but it probably is that.

As for the vocals, thanks for the tip, actually makes sense, but needed to make sure.
Click to expand...

I guess I could use some clarification on this. I would assume that you wanted the bass to be the center of the bass, or maybe you want the kick to be. You could just have a thin kick hitting with the bass. It will poke through more, depending on the type of bass. But you could also play with levels of the bass before you start eqing. Levels honestly get you 80% of the way there.

I Also hope you didn't make the high end stand out by boosting it. It would be better to just take low end out of the stuff you want centered around the high end.

S.Tek said:
You could check out my latest video, the other two beats aren't that better, but they're also not that as bad, when it comes to this issue (at least in my opinion). I tried to eq things, removing some low end from the bass, sidechaining it with the kick and some compression, and making the sample and whole master track high levels stand out.

As for the vocals, I appreciate the detailed breakdown of how it's done, and I'll give a try on those tips when the time comes. Other than that, I get what you said about Drake's 'Look What You've Done' vs 'Lord Knows'. I'll be on the lookout for that.

The link to my youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/SuspiciousTechniques/feed
- The best example is probably 'The Resolve', but check out the other two, to see look for some inconsistencies.
Click to expand...

Wow. Did you do anything I said for resolve or did it sound like that before you even posted here? That's a good beat. I mean it might need some random stuff coming in here and there to keep interest, but the groove and balance and feel is all there. I could easily see most rappers on here. Well done. The kick might be a little loud? But it certainly isn't ruining the song by being that loud. There's just a certain old school feel that comes with louder drums. Sounds like you were going for that in a way.

Now anger release has a serious drum problem to me. I'm guessing this is one where you couldn't be happy with it at any volume. Honestly, I think this track warrants a deeper kick with more bass, and I don't think you'll have as big of a problem with levels if you get that together. Right now it seems to be stepped on by those strings, and I don't think there's anything that would get in the way of a deeper kick. What kind of monitors do you have? I mean you don't even need anything crazy deep. This seems like a beat that will sound great out of small speakers. But I'm even pulling an eq on this and even a boost in the 100hz range over the whole beat with a shelf cut around 40hz to keep any unmusical subiness out seems beneficial. It doesn't make the kick super bassy (since it wasn't to begin with) but it adds some meat to it that the rest of the track doesn't have. You could just layer a deeper kick underneath and have it really low in volume. That's how people get kicks that sound low on big speakers and still have something to cut through with on smaller speakers.

Otherwise, good work.
 
crimsonhawk47 said:
I Also hope you didn't make the high end stand out by boosting it. It would be better to just take low end out of the stuff you want centered around the high end.
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It depends. usually I end up lowering the low end, but if I still don't get the result I'm looking for, than I'll end up raising the high end with an EQ rack, mostly in the master track...although I should probably use a diferent aproach...

Wow. Did you do anything I said for resolve or did it sound like that before you even posted here?
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Nah man, the beats are all exactly the same since I made them, but thanks for the feedback on that one, I really was trying to get that old school vibe, so thanks for noticing that.

Now anger release has a serious drum problem to me. I'm guessing this is one where you couldn't be happy with it at any volume. Honestly, I think this track warrants a deeper kick with more bass, and I don't think you'll have as big of a problem with levels if you get that together. Right now it seems to be stepped on by those strings, and I don't think there's anything that would get in the way of a deeper kick. What kind of monitors do you have? I mean you don't even need anything crazy deep. This seems like a beat that will sound great out of small speakers. But I'm even pulling an eq on this and even a boost in the 100hz range over the whole beat with a shelf cut around 40hz to keep any unmusical subiness out seems beneficial. It doesn't make the kick super bassy (since it wasn't to begin with) but it adds some meat to it that the rest of the track doesn't have. You could just layer a deeper kick underneath and have it really low in volume. That's how people get kicks that sound low on big speakers and still have something to cut through with on smaller speakers.
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That's good advice actually. I'm always trying to get the best sound I can, and I don't have any monitors...I'm working with a pair of AKG K518 headphones. I know they're great headphones, but I don't know if they are the best for music production when it comes to sound precision. The beats sound great to me, but maybe they're not, I don't know, and I really can't afford great spendings right (money or spacewise). I'll try that deeper kick advice. Anger Release actually was not even sampled, so I had a greater difficulty mixing all the instruments, but I'm experimenting more in that department.
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Some people swear by headphones, and I personally haven't had good luck with them. I think whenever you hear someone produced a hit it in headphones it was either a) arranged and then the samples were rechosen, completely undermining the idea that you can make hits in headphones or b) those people make songs that are 90% similar to each other. Same elements, same balance. So it's easier to learn your headphones. This is all opinion though, as I'm saying this as someone who personally hasn't made great mixes with two different headphones and had a much easier time once I got monitors, properly placed them, and took shelves out of my room. You should see the thread me and bandcoach had years ago. My room was an acoustic mess
 
crimsonhawk47 said:
Some people swear by headphones, and I personally haven't had good luck with them. I think whenever you hear someone produced a hit it in headphones it was either a) arranged and then the samples were rechosen, completely undermining the idea that you can make hits in headphones or b) those people make songs that are 90% similar to each other. Same elements, same balance. So it's easier to learn your headphones. This is all opinion though, as I'm saying this as someone who personally hasn't made great mixes with two different headphones and had a much easier time once I got monitors, properly placed them, and took shelves out of my room. You should see the thread me and bandcoach had years ago. My room was an acoustic mess
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Yeah, I'd really like to get a pair of monitors, but the money's short, and space isn't much for at least the next couple of months, so unless my headphones do the job for now, the only thing I could do for now, would be to get a pair of studio monitor headphones :/
 
S.Tek said:
Yeah, I'd really like to get a pair of monitors, but the money's short, and space isn't much for at least the next couple of months, so unless my headphones do the job for now, the only thing I could do for now, would be to get a pair of studio monitor headphones :/
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You know budget monitors are actually fine too. A pair of krk rokits 5 inch runs for like 300, or you could find some on sale. Of course, the smaller the speaker, the less it extends in frequency content. I have a 7 inch, which is fine, but it can have trouble with the lowest subs, like the lowest note on drakes we'll be fine. It's not that big of an issue though. You'd be surprised how many sub basses aren't actually subs. Music is more about mids. You could look at another Drake song, headlines, which has almost no bass, but it really jumps out of speakers small speakers. Making something that sounds good with focused mid content will still sound good on big systems. It just might be a little surprising how little bass they have. I would rather have small but focused speakers than any pair of headphones for the same price.
 
crimsonhawk47 said:
You know budget monitors are actually fine too. A pair of krk rokits 5 inch runs for like 300, or you could find some on sale. Of course, the smaller the speaker, the less it extends in frequency content.
Click to expand...

I was actually thinking about starting with the M-Audio BX5, or AV32, but I'm always debating on spending more or not. In a short term, I'd save some money to get the job done (a lot better) and use it for other stuff, but in the long term, I'd probably end up trading them for pricier ones, and burn the money I'd waste on the first pair...
 
S.Tek said:
I was actually thinking about starting with the M-Audio BX5, or AV32, but I'm always debating on spending more or not. In a short term, I'd save some money to get the job done (a lot better) and use it for other stuff, but in the long term, I'd probably end up trading them for pricier ones, and burn the money I'd waste on the first pair...
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True, the same happen with headphones though. I can't speak to other monitors. I have Yamaha hs7's
And they work fine
 
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