Is it this simple?

cheaplabour

New member
Hey!

I've had some difficulties making the kick break through the mix, until recently when I realized I could turn each individual track down and after that adjust the kick tracks fader.
I've gotten some results in my headphones but I won't know for sure until I go to the studio.

Is it this simple or am I missing something?

Best regards,
a newbie
 
Hey!

I've had some difficulties making the kick break through the mix, until recently when I realized I could turn each individual track down and after that adjust the kick tracks fader.
I've gotten some results in my headphones but I won't know for sure until I go to the studio.

Is it this simple or am I missing something?

Best regards,
a newbie

It depends on the production, but in most cases and in most genres, the kick drum is such an important sound source in the mix that you want to bring at least some of it, at least on some places in the mix out up front so that you can follow and feel it clearly enough for it to properly do its job and to help achieve certain mix wide qualities. For this you are using side chained compression. Those that are new to mixing typically don't understand this and they typically have pretty bad monitoring too. Relating to that phenomenon also is the fact that they entirely forget that there is a height dimension that needs to be balanced too and other related things that mess up the perceived low end of the mix. Hence the result is too much (or too little) power on the kick drum, which results in a too dense mix or lack of rhythm impact. It also to some degree impacts the high end perception negatively since the brain needs to build much more perception of the high end from the high end frequencies directly, which means now the engineers are boosting the high frequencies much more than they otherwise would need and because the low end sound sources become more active in the high end due to the incredible gain levels, this typically then in combination with perception bleed creates things like gun shot snares and very thick sounding hi-hats, cymbals, vocals and guitars that is overall perceived as the mix having a little harsh high end once it has all then been run into hard master bus brickwall peak limiting maybe under the influence of bad monitoring on top of it, those issues further then amplify the issue. If nobody tells these engineers this, they will struggle with this for months and many times years. That's why I write this, so that you don't have to face that.
 
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Hey!

I've had some difficulties making the kick break through the mix, until recently when I realized I could turn each individual track down and after that adjust the kick tracks fader.
I've gotten some results in my headphones but I won't know for sure until I go to the studio.

Is it this simple or am I missing something?

Best regards,
a newbie

Yes. For the most part, it is that simple.

Of course, there is more to "mixing" than adjusting the levels...

But what you have just figured out there is pretty much the solution to your biggest obstacle... many people never make that breakthrough regardless of how many times people explain it to them :)
 
Yes. For the most part, it is that simple.

Of course, there is more to "mixing" than adjusting the levels...

But what you have just figured out there is pretty much the solution to your biggest obstacle... many people never make that breakthrough regardless of how many times people explain it to them :)
Alright, just needed some sort of confirmation that this was a somewhat legit way.

Maybe I'm just dumb, but I can't believe I haven't found anyone mentioning this through my endless hours of googling my issue...
Thanks!
 
Yes, it is often than simple.

I'm just throwing this in here for the sake of jumbling your thoughts and giving you a different perspective, not to provide rigid guidelines. But I like to think that faders are a way to ALLOT volume and clarity, not to freely give it out. For example, you turned up the kick in the mix, but to the listener, that is the same thing as turning everything else down. Nothing can be loud or louder without something else being quiet or quieter. Otherwise we are just hearing a single sound in isolation. Even then, we hear which parts of that sound are louder than others. Unless you automate something partway through the song, your listener isn't going to know the difference between turning your kick up and turning everything else down. So because of that, volume is actually a limited resource, and you decide the pecking order every time you move the fader.

And for clarity, it's a similar thing. We hear a sound with the most clarity in isolation. Makes sense. Why would it be easier to hear what a kick sample TRULY sounds like with other sounds playing around it? It will always be easier when soloing the instrument. But that's not a bad thing at all. Just like, in the paragraph above, something being quiet isn't a problem. It's a necessary part of music. Often times, we don't WANT to hear a sound with as much clarity as possible. We don't pick sounds based on how good they are by themselves, we pick them for the context. Which means we often DON'T want to hear what they really sound like. A great example is a really lame thump for a kick that seems to have serious punch in the mix. So, with our faders, we turn stuff down (which is, again, like turning everything else up), and we decide how much of a sound we really want to hear. The only time adding more stuff into a song ADDS clarity is in a psychoacoustic way. A bass triggering under a kick in a mid heavy song will give us something in the low end to grab onto everytime the kick hits. While we notice the kick, we aren't hearing what it really sounds like. We are hearing what it sounds like when it hits with a bass. Or distorting a sound to add harmonic content to grab onto (though a lot of times people don't adjust their output volume on distortion units, so they are really just making the thing louder. In which case, they might just want to turn the sound up). Or a favorite of mine is when a specific sound is loud, and once a bunch of other elements come in, we automate its volume down. We've already heard the sound pretty loud, and even though we turned it down for the fuller mix, our brains are filling in the blanks of the missing volume.
 
I have a strange relationship with kicks. Despite coming from a trance/techno background over the years I have come to conclude that they add nothing to a track. They're just crutches for bad production. What is considered a normal level in mainstream music for a kick to me sounds too concussive. And they take up loads of headroom.

Now I aim for kicks to be as low as possible and still do their job. Often that entails constructing a kick from at least two parts: the body and the click. Most of the presence comes from the click. The body is more felt than detected. Having direct control over the level and duration of the click you can surgically fine tune it to work.
 
I have a strange relationship with kicks. Despite coming from a trance/techno background over the years I have come to conclude that they add nothing to a track. They're just crutches for bad production. What is considered a normal level in mainstream music for a kick to me sounds too concussive. And they take up loads of headroom.

Now I aim for kicks to be as low as possible and still do their job. Often that entails constructing a kick from at least two parts: the body and the click. Most of the presence comes from the click. The body is more felt than detected. Having direct control over the level and duration of the click you can surgically fine tune it to work.

I did have a really long reply to this on the merit of kick drums, but it was overkill when in the end, you understand we have different sensibilities. I like kick drums, personally, and I am often floored by how WEAK they are in more aggressive hip-hop.
 
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I read it before you deleted it. I will restate my opinion with more precision:

In current genres in which kicks are seen as tier 1 elements (basically EDM) they add nothing musically.

That's not to say it represents bad or lacking technical skills, but I think it does hide or disguise bad or lacking production of music.

I think the recent history of music shows you what I mean. Prominent kick drums is basically a recent phenomenon. You mentioned rock and soundtracks. In rock music the kick is just another drum. Even in really heavy rock music the kick is practically just a transient. In soundtracks, often mixed by very experienced mix engineers, kick drums are not prominent at all*. If you hear kick heavy genres written for sound tracks and compare that to EDM tracks licenced to and just played in soundtracks you notice a difference. This is a difference in mentality. In EDM the kick is as loud as possible without breaking the mix; in other genres and going back in history the kick is a quiet as possible while doing it's (limited) job.

*traditionally in soundtracks drums where used only for accents, rhythm was given to things like ostinato strings. It's basically since Hans Zimmer that that changed, now I think he's bored of that.
 
I read it before you deleted it. I will restate my opinion with more precision:

In current genres in which kicks are seen as tier 1 elements (basically EDM) they add nothing musically.

That's not to say it represents bad or lacking technical skills, but I think it does hide or disguise bad or lacking production of music.

I think the recent history of music shows you what I mean. Prominent kick drums is basically a recent phenomenon. You mentioned rock and soundtracks. In rock music the kick is just another drum. Even in really heavy rock music the kick is practically just a transient. In soundtracks, often mixed by very experienced mix engineers, kick drums are not prominent at all*. If you hear kick heavy genres written for sound tracks and compare that to EDM tracks licenced to and just played in soundtracks you notice a difference. This is a difference in mentality. In EDM the kick is as loud as possible without breaking the mix; in other genres and going back in history the kick is a quiet as possible while doing it's (limited) job.

*traditionally in soundtracks drums where used only for accents, rhythm was given to things like ostinato strings. It's basically since Hans Zimmer that that changed, now I think he's bored of that.

True, but with soundtracks a loud kick drum just wouldn't work unless you're going for a song that stands out. And some people do that. A lot of movies will use hip-hop in their soundtrack. But there's definitely a mental separation between "score" and "song" with the kick. My favorite soundtracks have exactly what you described, the kick being quiet, but not so quiet that it can't do the job.
 
I read it before you deleted it. I will restate my opinion with more precision: In current genres in which kicks are seen as tier 1 elements (basically EDM) they add nothing musically.

Then you have not heard any good sounding kicks yet.

Try to remember the last time you went to a live rock concert and the drums (DW) were sound checked in solo. Yes you can find tons of really bad kicks out there, but lots of AWESOME kick drums too. It is precisely the same on a recording. A kick drum that sings is very beautiful and very important to a great sounding mix and to great music.

A kick "click" like you describe adds only distortion to a mix, it is better then to mute it entirely.
 
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I've heard great sounding triangles... I don't see anyone lengthy discussions about the optimum level of a triangle hit.

Treat kicks and triangles as equals...fine by me.

Make kicks some special case...it's a crutch.
 
I've heard great sounding triangles... I don't see anyone lengthy discussions about the optimum level of a triangle hit.

Treat kicks and triangles as equals...fine by me.

Make kicks some special case...it's a crutch.

I am aware of how kicks impact a mix when set at various levels all the way from very quiet to very loud and there is nothing wrong with setting it very quiet to create a nice light gentle emotional mix. But in many genres and in many productions, the communication between the kick and snare is incredibly important both for tension and release and if this communication is not kept somewhat sized and up front you will lose mix impact because other elements in the mix are taking over, elements that do not provide the same dynamic qualities to the mix. Kick snare bass vocals are all first class citizens in modern mixing for good reason, they are certainly more important than a triangle, that I think most will agree on.
 
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I have a strange relationship with kicks. Despite coming from a trance/techno background over the years I have come to conclude that they add nothing to a track.

Opinion


They're just crutches for bad production..

silly



What is considered a normal level in mainstream music for a kick to me sounds too concussive.
.

what this tells me is that you do not like what is normal in "mainstream music", which is fine.



Now I aim for kicks to be as low as possible and still do their job. Often that entails constructing a kick from at least two parts: the body and the click. Most of the presence comes from the click. The body is more felt than detected. Having direct control over the level and duration of the click you can surgically fine tune it to work.

ok
 
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