question about the pan law

J

jjitter

New member
Hello everyone, just wanted to know what pan law you guys are using for mixing. Is there a preferred pan law for music mixing? I admit of having a less than suitable environment to make out pans and levels precisely and can depend on meters only so much. (heavily rely on headphones)
From what I understood when using the 3db pan law - from center to hard left or right, there is a 3db gain. So the faders need to be adjusted according to the pan again right? Or should I use some other pan law?

Thanks!
 
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My "pan law" has always been to melt a little butter in it before cooking, but for those who are concerned about cholesterol, I guess you could always spray it with PAM (tm)...

But seriously, folks-- While there is such a thing as the "Pan Law," and if you double a signal (either combining, or putting the exact same signal in both channels of a stereo mix) it will add 6dB (3dB or 4 dB compensated in some systems), you should kind of ignore all of that...

Don't use your meters to mix! Use your ears!!!!

Use the meters to help you ascertain if there are problems (distortion, clipping). Use your meters as a guide to overall volume for program content. But mix with your ears. Adjust volumes the way you think they should sound. As Joe Meek said-- "If it sounds good, it is good."

GJ
 
Here is something specific to my situation. I have the stereo outs of a keyboard plugged in to a stereo channel of a mixer, but want to record a mono sum. Left is carrying sound A and right is carrying sound B, but kind of wanna record it as one sound,in mono. How do i approach this?

Thanks again!
 
when someone is a beginner
it is good to read what other people have to say because you may not recognize some of the problems like: clipping, distortion, muddiness, and stuff like that

but once you understand what those mean; you are free to do everything you like ,

for example i know people say keep the bass in the center
but I may be like f that, I want a new experience I want my bass 100% LEFT

but I would keep in mind to not play that too loud because of distortion, and one speaker cannot handle so much , and give more overtones less low-end

so you have to understand if something creates unwanted problems if not , do whatsoever you like
 
Hey jjitter, what kind of keyboard? Is there a reason you have to use stereo outs? (Most keyboards that have stereo outs also already output mono in the left side).

What brand and model number?

GJ
 
He's using a stereo output and a symmetrical mono input. ;)

You'll have to use a TRS-2-2xTS-jack-cable in other words: a cable with a 'stereo' jack on the one end and two 'mono' jacks on the other.
 
I could have guessed that, but that's why I asked (to know for sure). OP, it would still be good for you to post some equipment specifics...

GJ
 
hey thanks for the replies guys! sorry for not mentioning the gear.. I have a Dave Smith Prophet 08 and Korg Radias plugged into a Yamaha n12 mixer. i have 8 monoaural inputs on the mixer and two stereo inputs 9/10 and 11/12. I am trying out both as of now. Prophet and Radias both have 2 pairs of stereo outputs to output different stacked layers in the keyboard. And each stereo output on both has Left marked as mono. Bottomline - I get 2 L(mono) outs from 2 keyboards. So four keyboard layers on four monoaural channels of the mixer.

@gj -yes they have the L(mono)out but there are times when i duplicate a layer on the keyboard and send it out through a different out, to a different mono channel on the mixer and have a slightly different eqs on both. kind of parallel processing. Or when i want to get two different sounding layers of the same keyboard on two mixer channels to mix them into one sound that needs to be recorded mono.

Now here is the situation. A bit unconventional, but let me atleast experience how it feels to break the rules :) -

If i want to record these layers with the mixer's on board fx (i know that is not the right way of recording and mixing, but humor me. Sometimes i just have one layer for which i use the n12's compression and reverb before recording) i will have to route it to what is called a REC bus on the n12, which is stereo. And the levels are always louder after recording these mono channels through a stereo bus. What is happening when i route my mono channel to this stereo bus? Is it just duplicating left and sending it to right? I wanted to record them as mono, but as soon as i use the on board fx, this stereo REC bus comes into play. How do i go about recording them mono, with the little bit of fx that i want, no change in levels? Just the way it sounds before recording in terms of levels.

Thanks again for the help. Really appreciate it.
 
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jjitter said:
Hello everyone, just wanted to know what pan law you guys are using for mixing. Is there a preferred pan law for music mixing? I admit of having a less than suitable environment to make out pans and levels precisely and can depend on meters only so much. (heavily rely on headphones)
From what I understood when using the 3db pan law - from center to hard left or right, there is a 3db gain. So the faders need to be adjusted according to the pan again right? Or should I use some other pan law?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

You should not depend on meters AT ALL to dteemine what SOUNDS LIKE IT IS TOO LOUD.

Does it sound too loud? lower it.

Can't hear it as much as you'd like? turn it up.

Whether or not something is {x}db louder/lower when you pan is irrelevant. You don't adjust/compensate a level based on a formula like that. You listen to your mix and make changes accordingly.

Regardless of what the "db level" is, things will sound different and cut through a mix differently whenever you make any changes like pan, eq, compression, fx, etc.

There is no such thing as a "law" of compensation.

USE YOUR EARS.

That is how it works.
 
JJ-- Korg Radias and DS Prophet going into Yamaha mixer to which interface and DAW (or other recording device)?

GJ
 
A few ideas on getting a mono/summed signal from your keyboards...

1) Use the L/Mono output only
2) Use stereo outs, pan center, use TRS > TS cable(s)
3) Use a Y-cord (actually, highly "unrecommended;" you should use this type of cable to split a signal, but not sum. I only include it because thousands of people worldwide do this anyway, regardless of consequences)
4) Use TRS cables with mono (TS) adaptors
5) Use inputs in stereo; sum to mono in one track of your DAW (Cubase)
6) Use a keyboard sub-mixer to sum the signals before inputting to one channel of your mixer
7) Use Bus/Aux Send set-up to apply effects to a single keyboard signal, to do your parallel processing with only one keyboard output

TBH, I think you might be better served by using your DAW to create your parallel processing set-up for EQ's and FX, rather than using your limited amount of inputs on the mixer for that task. When using one signal and sending it to 2 or 4 separate effects groups, you won't have to worry about the volume thing so much. When you bring faders up on the DAW on all keyboard tracks, you will still have the 6dB increase (that's just a given), but you will be able to control it easier because the stack of sounds is coming from a single source (your one initial mono keyboard output). You can even group the faders together from all of the various synth channels so that once you adjust them in a sub-mix that you like, when you move one fader, they all move as a group.

I hope that helps. I think I understand what you're doing; I just probably wouldn't do it that way myself...

GJ
 
wow this helped a lot. A patch in a keyboard, or guitar processor also consists of eq and fx. There are keyboards that let u make patches (which u do before recording) with eq and fx. So I thought why not use the mixer's onboard eq and fx to make a patch? But the recording community says not to record with fx. Or might say that not to record with effects unless its creating some sort of stereo image.
Then how do i use these keyboard/guitar processor fx? The thin line between using eq, fx to create a patch and using eq, fx to create a mix confuses me. One dictates using fx pre recording the other dictates using it post recording. How do you include both in your music making process?

Anyways, I think i am safe sticking to your 5th suggestion. Thanks again GJ!:D
 
jjitter said:
But the recording community says not to record with fx.
Click to expand...

I think the recording community actually just says "don't make irreversible choices during recording unless you're 100% sure of what you're doing". The only thing "wrong" with recording with effects is just that - if it turns out that your awesome delay feedback network doesn't quite work in the context of your mix, it can be really hard to get rid of it, if it's "printed".
 
^^^^This^^^^. There's nothing wrong with committing to a sound, as long as you understand you're _committing_; there's no going back and taking off that effect that sounded great on a solo' track that doesn't work as well as you had hoped in the mix (big picture).

GJ
 
hmm thats a good way to approach it. As long as one is sure, it doesn't matter if its with fx or without. i guess its a practice that comes from the time when recording medium was limited like tape. A good practice anyway.
Thanks all!
 
Perfect timing for a thread...

I just downloaded a plugin called "Sonalksis Free G".

I am using it as a master fader control for my master channel in Ableton for all things mixing/monitoring.

It has a setting called "Pan Law" at 0, -3, -6.

So...I googled Pan Law...but honestly...I am still confused as to what it is.

1. Can someone explain or define Pan Law in layman's terms for me so I can understand...???

2. Which setting am I supposed to use for the Pan Law in the Free G plugin...??? Right now...I have it at '0'.

On a side note...

I'm using a laptop with the onboard soundcard and headphones. I guess gear could be a 'factor' or 'bottle neck' with this plugin and the Pan Law...correct...???
 
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Gear will only come into factor in terms of quality. It will have nothing to do with the pan law.

In simple terms, pan law says that while panning from center to extreme left or right, there will be a 0db, 3db or 6db increase. Or if you look at it the opposite way while panning from extreme right or left to the center there will be decrease of 0db, 3db or 6db. Depends on the setting you choose. For eg. if the meter of your track shows 0db when extreme panned to either L or R, it will show -3 or -6db when you get it to the center. Or there will be no change in levels wherever your pan is if you choose 0db. You can go into further details as to why this change in amplitude happens. Mybe someone here will explain it better than me.

Also pan of a mono track and balance of a stereo track are not to be confused. Even though both are image creating methods, one works different than the other. Having said that, these days you can even pan the L and the R of a stereo track seperately in a DAW after recording to refine the 'stereoness'.

As far as which on to choose, I would say choose to suit your need, working style, track and environment. In the end if you are using say 6db pan law and you pan something pretty hard and the level goes up considerably, you will have to bring it down. Or maybe try a different pan law to suit.
 
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